MR CORPO PODCAST

It only takes 30 minutes to change your life. In this episode MR CORPO explains the importance of your weekly 1:1 meeting with your boss, why you should never try and go over your boss' head (BONUS SECTION) and why you should find ways to take work off your boss' to-do list and do it yourself (SUPER SECRET BONUS SECTION). Ever feel like you don't get credit for all the work you do? MR CORPO has an easy solution for that too. Plus MR CORPO explains how to make everyone on your team hate you.

LISTEN HERE: 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How to Manage Up (12/7/2016)

JUSTIN: Together. Oh, let's get together, yeah, yeah, yeah. Think of all that we could share. Let's get together, yeah, yeah, yeah. Two is twice as one. Let's get together right away. We'll be having twice the fun, and you can always count on me, a gruesome twosome we will be. Let's get together, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. That was my vocal rendition of the classic Disney song from the movie Parent Trap. And in case you couldn't tell, it's called Let's Get Together. On today's show, we're gonna talk about getting together. But that's not the exact topic. The exact topic is gonna be called How To Manage Up. Another way to say that would be how to kiss up. It could also be called how to be good at your job. But let's just call it how to manage up. Now, I don't care if this is your first day on the job. I don't care if this is middle management, I don't care if you're a Vice President. I don't care if you're a President. I don't care if you're the CEO. You need to manage up. It's a fact of life, so let's accept it and let's get to work.

 

Now, on today's show we're gonna talk about a couple things. The first thing we're gonna talk about is the importance of a one-to-one weekly meeting, otherwise known as the most important 30 minutes of your entire work week. We're also gonna talk about why you should offer to take things off your boss's plate and do them yourself, and we're also gonna talk about what an idiot you are if you think you should go over your boss's head to try and win favor with your boss's boss, or your boss's boss's boss.

 

But onto the task at hand. Let's talk about how to manage up. How many of you have a weekly one-to-one with your boss? I will state 100 percent unequivocally you cannot be successful at your job if you don't have a one-to-one every single week. Period, end of sentence, no debate. Now, I'm not talking about a casual, every-so-often one-to-one. I'm talking about a scheduled, dedicated, consistent, every week one-to-one meeting.

 

Now, before I talk about how to schedule these meetings, and before I talk about how to run these meetings to their maximum impact, I wanna talk about why the one-to-one weekly meeting is the most important meeting of the entire week, and why this is essential -- this is the foundation of managing up. This is your chance to be one-on-one with your boss and have a dedicated time.

 

Now, the benefits of that should be pretty obvious, but let me give you a couple specific examples of why this meeting is gonna be so important for you and all the benefits. Here's one: have you ever complained that you don't get enough credit for your work? Well, guess what? Having a weekly one-to-one meeting gives you a chance 52 times a year to keep reminding your boss all the amazing things you're doing. That sounds like a benefit. That's one reason. Here's another reasoning. Do you know how to make everyone on your team hate you? Tell them to do something and then go back to them one hour later, one day later, one week later, and tell them they have to redo it because your boss doesn't agree with what you said. Having a weekly one-to-one gives you a chance to pre-align with your boss. Get sign-off, get the approval, boom. No changes in direction, no double work. All of a sudden when you say something, people believe you. That's called credibility. That's a good thing. Trust me. You will not be good at your job if you don't have this one-to-one meeting. You cannot effectively manage up if you do not have this meeting.

 

And please, don't be that dumb, young person out there who works at a small company and thinks, "Yeah, I don't need to do this. I talk to my boss all the time. In fact, I sit right next to my boss. This is only for corporate people." Guess what? Those aren't meetings you're having with your boss, that's white noise. It's meaningless. It's coming, it's going, you don't have attention, it's not dedicated time. That doesn't take the place of a dedicated one-to-one meeting. So don't make that mistake. I've been going all around the country, talking at big companies, talking at small companies, and there are some things that are universal truths. This is one of them: the one-to-one meeting with your boss is the most critical 05:01 30 minutes you spend in your week, and in order to manage up and be good at your job, you've got to have this.

 

I remember I was in San Francisco sitting at this small company, they're called Chubby's, and this girl raised her hand and she said, "Well, I don't need to do this because my boss sits right next to me and we move really fast and we don't have enough time to have these meetings." And I remember looking around the room, and I caught the eye of who was their boss, and this person was just shaking their head like, "Oh my gosh, this girl needs these meetings more than anyone else." Trust me, I don't care how big of an office you have, I don't care how many people are on the team. Even if there's only two of you. I don't care if you even work in a restaurant and you're a waitress. You should have a dedicated time with your manager or boss to talk about things. I promise you that in passing gesture of, oh yeah, we just talked outside, it was good: that doesn't count, alright? Get a dedicated time on the calendar.

 

And before I get off my high horse on this, I'm just gonna say one more thing. If you're out there and you're a semi-successful director or vice president and you're thinking, "I don't need this, look at me. I'm so semi-successful without having a weekly one-to-one meeting." Guess what? You're semi-successful. Think how much more successful you could have been if you did have these meetings. If you're the vice president, you probably should be the president by now. So get your one-to-one meetings on point and get these on the calendar.

 

So now that everyone believes me that these are essential meetings in order to be able to manage up and be good at your job, let's talk about how to schedule them, okay? So here's how you schedule. Not on Mondays. It's too busy on a Monday, everyone's back from the weekend, priorities are still being set. Not on Mondays. Also, not on Fridays. Nobody likes anyone who schedules meetings on a Friday. This is just a fact. Also, don't schedule them in the afternoon. If you schedule meetings in the afternoon, they're more likely to be moved around. They're more likely for something else to have happened during the day, and they need to cancel it. So that leaves you with Tuesday through Thursday in the mornings. This is your sweet spot, alright?

 

Now, as to the title of the meeting, even when you're scheduling it, this is important. I want you to call it Weekly One-to-One, Justin and Michelle. You've got to put your name in the title. If you just write Weekly One-to-One, guess what? Your boss probably has more than one person that reports to them. They look at their calendar and now it's super confusing. If you put your name in it, all of a sudden it has meaning. It's gone from a meaningless, corporate just meeting on the calendar to oh my gosh, this is a dedicated time to be with another human being. So put your name in the title. Weekly One-to-One, Justin plus Boss. Alright? That's really important.

 

Now, here's the next part of having a successful one-to-one meeting. You must send a pre-read 24 hours in advance of the meeting, and at worst, by five PM the day before. Why five PM? You have to get credit for being organized and knowing what you're gonna talk about in advance. This pre-read itself has to be super simple. Here is the agenda, here's the bullet points. The less words, the better. Now, the benefits of this pre-read are: you're saying to your boss, I am organized. You're saying, heads up on the topic, so that the boss can prepare in case there's any topics that they may need to bring some information to the table. It also keeps the meeting from being cancelled. These meetings have a tendency to be cancelled if you're not bringing the agenda. So by sending it in advance, you're pre-empting any instinct a boss might have for trying to cancel this meeting.

 

Also, this might not be as obvious to everyone: it removes the pressure from the boss to feel like they have to run the meeting. Because here's the thing: the bosses are running meetings all week. All they do all day is run meetings. But if you can say, "This is a time where I'm gonna run the meeting, I'm providing the agenda, I have topics, I'm gonna lead it," it makes the boss feel good. Makes him feel like, oh, someone else is gonna do a little bit of work around here. All of that just by sending the pre-read agenda. So that is essential.

 

Now, when it comes to the meeting itself, you wanna print out two copies of that agenda that you sent, and you bring both copies. I want you to have physical copies to hand out. And the purpose of this is two-fold. First, it says again, "I am organized. I have brought the material that is necessary to keep us on track and to give us the topics to talk about." This is important.

 

The second thing is, seeing it printed out is a physical representation of all the work that you're doing. Now, multiply this times 52 times. All of a sudden, your boss has a physical reminder of everything that you're doing, and everything that you're doing that's important. And guess what? That starts to add up when you do it every single week, and now 52 times, 10:00 you've basically gotten in front of your boss and said, "I'm important. I'm organized. Look at all the work I do." Do you think that there's any chance they're not gonna recognize all the work you do, or you're not gonna get credit anymore? Of course not. You're gonna maximize the credit you get for the work you're doing.

 

Now, as for the goal of this meeting, there's three things that come to mind. The first is, you're getting approval on things you're working on. You're either telling them, "Here's the direction I'm giving to the team, do you agree with this?" You're also saying, "Here's my priorities, do you agree with this? Should I move any of these things?" The second thing you're doing is, you're reminding them of everything that you have going on. Again, this is really important. Bosses have a lot on their mind, they might have forgotten that you're doing all these projects, or that you hold down the fort on this and that. So get it back in front of them. And then the third thing, at the risk of repeating myself is, you are saying to your boss, "I am organized." And then, subtly, you're saying, "You can trust me." And these things kind of add up, so that when the next project comes along, the boss is thinking, who do I want to work on this? They're gonna want the person who's keeping them up to date, who's organized, who brings the battle to them. So all of this can happen just from your weekly one-to-one meeting.

 

Alright, look. I hope that's convinced you that the most important 30 minutes of your day are gonna be this one-to-one meeting. And don't be someone who tells me you don't have enough time, your boss is too busy, or you're too busy. I tried to do the math and I looked at it: 30 minutes out of a 40-hour work week is only 1.2 percent of your time. Now, no one works a 40-hour work week. We're all working 50-hour work weeks, 60-hour work week. So I'm talking about less than one percent of your time dedicated to the most important thing that you can do. So time is not an excuse, being busy is not an excuse. Just go out and do it.

 

Now, having said all of that, it's time for the bonus section. Rob, bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! (clapping) I love you! Bonus section.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Here we are everybody, we're at another bonus section. And when I wanna talk about right now is, do not try and go over your boss's head. We're here to talk about managing up. And you may think, hey, I've got a great idea. Forget my boss, I'm gonna go for the boss's boss. That's managing up, isn't it? Well, let me tell you, that's not managing up, that's shooting yourself in the foot. Like it or not, your boss is gonna be the most important person in your work life. They're gonna be on the front lines of deciding whether you get promoted or not, whether you get a raise or not, whether you get the good project or not, whether you can take vacation or not, or whatever the case may be. You've got to stay in the good graces of your boss. And one of the surefire ways to fall out of the good graces of your boss is to try and go over their head with an issue or a topic to the boss's boss.

 

Now, I've fallen victim to this before, and I haven't even tried to go over my boss's head. But what happened was, I happened to be on one of those small jets where it's the CEO's jet and you're flying around the country and there's a bunch of executives on the plane. And I remember there's -- let's say there's four or five of us. The CEO of the company, my boss, and a couple other executives. And we're sitting around and I made some joke about how my boss, Michelle, had forgotten my birthday. And I thought this was the funniest thing. And everyone was laughing. However I told the story, it was really funny, everyone was laughing and all this stuff and I thought, "Great, I'm making a great impression on the CEO, and all these people think I have a great personality." I got off that plane and my boss stuck her finger in my chest and said, "Don't you ever do that again." And I had no idea what she was talking about. And I said, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "Don't you ever try and make me look bad in front of my boss ever again." And I was just deer in headlights, and I thought, "What are you talking about?" What is this -- where is this coming from? I thought we were all laughing, I thought we were all getting along, it was just a joke. And she said, "I don't want you to ever make me look bad -- if you ever try that again, you're gonna be in serious trouble." And I just was quiet. I said, "Okay." I said, "I apologize, I had a misunderstanding, I thought it was just a lighthearted poke. But um, I apologize and I understand that I really wanna make you look good in front of everybody, cause you helped me a lot."

 

But the point was, and what it taught me is, bosses can be sensitive, and your job is to make your boss look good. Make your boss look good, let your boss make you look good. So stick in that lane, stay there, and don't try and veer too far from that. Learn from my mistakes in the past. That's just one example.

 

Now, Rob, we're gonna go to the super secret bonus section. 15:01 Super secret bonus section. Super secret bonus section. Alright, we're in the super secret bonus section, I usually drop my voice a little bit so it feels like a whisper, because it's such a secret, only you and I can know about this. But here's something I want you to do when we talk about managing up, when we talk about trying to make your boss look good, make your boss's life look better, here's something I want you to keep an eye out for. Try and identify something that your boss is doing right now that you could be doing. Inevitably, your boss, just through inheriting tasks or holding onto things, is doing things that they shouldn't do or that someone else could do.

 

Now, if during your weekly one-to-one meeting you can go to your boss and say, "Hey, boss, you know, I was just thinking, I know you still consolidate the reports on Monday and take all five people's information and put them into that file. I just wanted to check with you, I thought that's something I could take on and, you know, give you a little bit of time back, and I could coordinate everything for you. What do you think?" Now, on the surface this might look like, wait a minute, you're trying to take away something that your boss is doing? Are they gonna be upset? Of course not. You're giving them time back.

 

Now, the second thing you're thinking is, wait a minute, this means I have to do more work? And the answer is yes -- yes you have to do a little bit more work. But think of all the benefits. You've identified a pain point for your boss, you've offered to solve that and give them time back. All of a sudden, you're becoming that right hand. You're becoming that trusted lieutenant who takes things off of their plate, or tries to make things more efficient. Who doesn't wanna have someone like that on their team? So it's not always intuitive for people. But look around and try and find some low-hanging fruit, some easy projects, or some easy behaviors, or some easy forms that you can say, hey, why don't you let me do that? Or, here's an easier way to do that. Your boss is gonna love you, and that's a good thing.

 

Now, I've given you a lot of information there. But hopefully you can kinda see that full package of what it means to manage up, and how do you communicate with your boss, how do you try and make them look good. And then at the same time, all those things help you be better at your job. And you know, my point is, get more money in your pocket, get more promotions, better title, better office, happier life. Okay? That's I think how the story's supposed to go, in that fairy tale of Corpo work.

 

So without further ado, I'm gonna sign off from today's episode. Of course I'm gonna thank our sponsor, Forlorn Hope Wines, go to forlornhopewines.com, the Mr. Corpo discount is still in effect, so please get out there and buy some wine, subscribe to their wine club, he's continuing to sell out of wines, and that stuff is really, really good. And of course, I wanna remind you to hit me up on the social channels. Hit me up on Instagram at JDKJDKJDKJDK. Hit me at Twitter at Mr_Corpo.

 

And of course, I wanna keep the Ask Mr. Corpo section going, so use our anonymous hot tip line, which is at mrcorpopodcasdt@gmail.com. You can leave any questions you want, we'll answer them anonymously. We'll mention our name if you want a shoutout. But it's a great way to kind of get your work problems solved. And we love to, you know, get input from our listeners and hear what's on their mind. Often times, it inspires entire episodes. So get out there, give us a shout, we'd love to hear from you. And as always, we've got the incredible producer, Rob Schulte, sitting across from me. Rob, thanks for another great episode. Things are going well. Do you think you can handle normal episode bonus section and super secret bonus section?

 

ROB: Inaudible.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, you have actually. So that's it for the Mr. Corpo podcast. Let's get to work. 18:57

You spend all day at your desk filling out EXCEL spreadsheets - but every so often you get a chance to give a presentation - this is your moment to shine - don't suck. MR CORPO explains how to give a good presentation in 4 easy steps. He also compares his presentation style to President Barack Obama and Martin Luther King Jr. BONUS SECTION welcomes our first return guest - Luisa Black - to talk about her advice on how to "make yourself big" and the power of sitting in the tallest chair at the table.

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

How to Give a Presentation (11/30/2016)

JUSTIN: Hello, it's me. I was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet, to go over everything. They say that time's supposed to heal ya, but I ain't done much healing. Hello. Can you hear me?

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today we are going to talk about how to give a presentation. And the bonus section today is going to feature a super special guest. It's actually a return guest, our first return guest on the Mr. Corpo podcast. So more on that later.

 

But you may be wondering, why did I open the show by singing Adele's "Hello"? Now, the obvious reason is, I love her. Now, the less obvious reason is, her songs capture everything that it take to give a good presentation. Number one, she gives a good introduction. She has a clear agenda. And number three, repetition. Repetition, repetition. As we get going in this podcast, you'll hear me talk about repetition, and the power of saying the same message over and over. Think about her song, Hello. She says that song and that phrase multiple times throughout the song to let you know this is the important part of the song. And to make sure you've heard her the first time.

 

But onto the matter at hand. Let's talk about how to give a presentation. I've actually written a chapter in my book called "How to Give a Presentation." The book itself is called, How To Write an Email. But the chapter itself is called, "How to Write a Presentation." And I've never spoken publicly about this topic of how to give a presentation. So this podcast will be the first time I'm talking about it. Presentations are a chance for you to be your best self. It's a chance for you to stand in front of your peers, in front of your bosses, in front of your boss's bosses, and show them what you're made of, and present yourself in the best format possible.

 

Now, most of the day, you're sitting at your computer, you're filling out excel spreadsheets. It's really hard to shine. But if you can give a good presentation, that can be worth 100 or 1,000 good excel spreadsheets. So my point is, listen up, let's learn how to give a good presentation, and you'll get further, faster in your career.

 

Now, in the book, there's six steps to giving a good presentation. But being the efficiency monster that I am, for the purpose of this podcast I've narrowed it down to only four steps. Number one, the one sentence overview. Number two, explain the structure. Number three, the headline. And number four, repetition. So there's four key steps. Alright, the first step of giving a good presentation is the one sentence overview.

 

Now, here's what I would want you to say. I am here to present X. That's it. I am here to present X. Tell them what you're going to tell them. That's right, I want you to tell them what you're going to tell them. No surprises. This is your first impression. This is your chance to say, "I am organized. Here's what I'm gonna talk to you about." And it's to get their attention. So you wanna keep it very simple, very succinct, very short. I am here to talk about X. I am here to present X. That's it. The first step is the one sentence overview. It's not two sentences. It's a one sentence overview. The less words the better.

 

Okay, so that's step one. On to step two. You have to explain the structure. So here's what I want you to say. There are three main points. That's it. So the first thing you did was you gave the one-sentence overview. It said, "I am here to present X." The next thing you're supposed to do is explain the structure. That means, "There are three main points." Now, your audience knows what to expect. You've told them the big topic, now you've told them there's three main points. You're writing their notes for them. This is really important because people can often get lost in the middle of a presentation or a conversation and they don't know what to listen for. But if you tell them that there's three main points, now they know to listen for three main points. The other thing you're doing with this presentation so far is, you're saying, "I am organized. Therefore you should listen to me." So, if the first thing was one sentence overview, the second thing was explain your structure.

 

The third thing is headlines. 04:59 Now here's what I would want you to say about headlines. I want to talk about A, B, and C. That's it. You literally only have to say, "I want to talk about A, B, and C." You need to announce the three big headlines. Again, you're helping them to write their notes for them. Now, not only do they know they have to listen for three main points, they know what is the name of each of these three points. So again, you've helped them organize their own thinking, and paying more attention to you. The main mistake people make during presentations is, they make it difficult for people to follow where you are in the presentation or what are your key facts. It's not the audience's job to figure out what the key points are. It's your job as the presenter to make it obvious and clear and simple what are their three key points that they need to listen to. Okay? It's your responsibility.

 

So, so far, all we've said is, "I am here to present X. There are three main points. I want to talk about A, B, and C." It's super simple, it's super clear, everyone knows where you're going. Now, the fourth step in making a good presentation is repetition. Repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. This is the most important part of your presentation. So here's what I would want you to say: "Okay, so we've talked about A. Now we're going to talk about B." And you may be saying, "Well, I just talked about A, so why do I have to say the words, I just talked about A?" You have to say it because you have to remind everyone what you just talked about. And you see, what you're doing is, you're pivoting back to your three main points. You're pivoting back to your structure, you're pivoting back to your headlines.

 

So, the point is, repetition is power. Think about what President Obama gives a presentation. You'll hear him repeat the same phrase multiple times. Listen to Martin Luther King, Jr. He's giving presentations. Sure, they call them speeches, but they're presentations. In his I Have A Dream speech, he used that phrase nine times. I would argue that's an extreme version, it's a very powerful version. But repetition is the key. If you go to a Southern Baptist Church, you're gonna hear the ministers. They're gonna repeat the same phrase multiple times. And the magic number is three. It's not four. It's not two. It's not five. It's three. The power is in the three. The first time you say it, they might have heard it. The second time you say it, hey, I think I've already heard that before. Maybe that's important. The third time you say it, oh, that must be important. They've said it three times. So three times. Hit those repetition notes. So, for example, here's -- "I'm gonna talk about three things, here's topic A, blah blah blah blah blah. So now I've finished topic A, so now I'm gonna talk about B. Blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, I finished topic B, now I'm gonna move topic C. Topic C is this. Blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, now I've finished topic C. Okay, the presentation is done."

 

Do you see the point? Do you see the rhythm? Tell everyone when you start a topic, tell everyone when you finish the topic, tell everyone when you move to the next topic. And let them know when you've finished. Don't be afraid to repeat yourself. There's a power in the repetition. Alright?

 

Now, there's one more thing I wanna talk about when it comes to giving presentations. Tell people how much time it is going to take. So right at the beginning of your presentation, you wanna be able to say to people, alright, here's what I'm gonna talk about, here's the three key points, and by the way, it's probably gonna take seven minutes, so it's not gonna be that long, and then we can get to some great questions. Saying that seven minutes calms everybody down.

 

Just think about your own situation. How many times were you in college? How many times have you been at some fundraiser or some happy hour and someone gets up to give a speech and they start talking and all you start thinking about is, oh my gosh, how long is this person going to talk? When will they stop talking? Will they ever stop talking? You might need to get somewhere, you might wanna go out on a date with somebody. You might wanna do something else. And all they're doing is talking, talking, talking. So what are you left to do? You start looking at their notes, you try to count the number of pages they have left. You're trying to figure out, well, if they've talked this long, how much longer can they possibly talk? And guess what? Over that entire period of 60 seconds, or 90 seconds, you haven't heard a single word that they've said. All you've been thinking about is, how much longer are they gonna talk?

 

So as the presenter, you wanna avoid this situation. You don't want people thinking about, how much longer is this person gonna talk? Or, what is this person saying, or when should I pay attention to them? You want to tell them, hey, this is probably gonna take seven minutes. Immediately, you've calmed everyone down. They know they only have to pay attention for seven minutes. You're not asking them for an hour, you're not asking them for 30 minutes. You're asking them for seven minutes. 10:00Anyone can do seven minutes.

 

Now, the second part of this is, you wanna tell people during the presentation how much time is left. So, "Hi everyone, we just finished section B, I'm about to talk about topic C, there's probably only three more minutes and then we'll be done." By giving the audience this clue, this idea to say, there's only three minutes left -- what you're really saying to them is, hey, if you haven't been listening to me, if you missed everything else I've said, there's only three minutes left, so at least pay attention to these three minutes. So again, you've given them another way into the conversation if they've missed it. Or, you've encouraged them to say, keep with it, there's only three minutes left, let's keep going, anyone can get to the finish line of three minutes. So there's multiple benefits to this idea of keeping your audience in tune with you and knowing how long do they have to listen, how much longer do they need to go until the end, and dot, dot, dot.

 

So there's a real power in letting people know how much time is this presentation gonna take. So that's everything I have to say about how to give a presentation. If you wanna know the other two points, go out and buy my book, How To Write An Email. It's on amazon.com, or you can hit me on the website, mrcorpo.com. Or the publisher at extracurricularpress.com.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on Lori, say something!

 

LOUISA: Bonus section!

 

JUSTIN: Bonus section! I love you!

 

LOUISA: That's not my name, now you gotta redo it.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. We'll do it all again.

 

LOUISA: Yeah, you blew it.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, let's call her Louisa.

 

LOUISA: That's what you did last time.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

LOUISA: Okay.

 

JUSTIN: Welcome to the show, Louisa.

 

LOUISA: But what are you gonna do about bonus section?

 

JUSTIN: We're gonna leave it as is.

 

LOUISA: No you're not.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, uh, yes we are.

 

LOUISA: No you're not.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, no, no, no, you're right. We will go back and fix that later in post-production.

 

LOUISA: No, you won't.

 

JUSTIN: Alright. Hi, Louisa Black. Welcome to the show.

 

LOUISA: Hi, thank you.

 

JUSTIN: Welcome back to the show! You're the first two-time guest on the Mr. Corpo podcast.

 

LOUISA: Yes, it's like deja vu all over again.

 

JUSTIN: Is that a good thing?

 

LOUISA: (laughs) We'll see.

 

JUSTIN: Listen, on today's episode we're talking about how to give a presentation. And so I thought it'd be fun to bring you on the show because you are a rock n'roll goddess. You go around the world. You play rock n'roll shows. And in some ways, you're a presenter, you're a performer, and each rock n'roll show is almost in itself its own presentation. So I'm just wondering, do you have anything to say about this idea of how to give a good presentation?

 

LOUISA: I think -- so I think that what I've learned is, you just have to have an intention behind whatever it is that you do.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, intention. What does that mean?

 

LOUISA: Yeah, so like, decide how you're gonna present and then just do that. You know? Make a choice. Um, and I think this is true -- you learn this like uh, you know, in acting school, too. Like you just choose when you're trying to represent something, like choose what you're gonna do, and then do that, so that you're not like vague or unfocused. I think it's the same when you're um, you know, you play in a band, like, just decide what you're gonna be and do in that moment. And then be and do that.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. So I'm trying to translate this into the work-a-day world for my Corpo audience and so I'm thinking, make a decision, decide what you wanna do. It's kind of like, I would say that's similar to, decide what are the key points, we talked about like, have three main headlines. You've gotta go in there and say, here's the three things I wanna get across. One, two, three. Rather than go in there and just try and be general knowledge person or gobblety-gook, or just kinda let it come out of you. The preparation you put in is gonna make for a better performance. Is that what you're saying?

 

LOUISA: Sort of. I don't -- I mean, I do -- I think preparation is part of it, but I think preparation is only part of it because it frees you up to do stuff outside of the prepared, like, off the script -- right? So, the more kind of like, facility and confidence you have, the more you can take risks. So I don't think it's strictly about preparing. And I'm not even sure it's about making sure, like, you know the content, although I think that helps. Um, I'm personally like a big fan of sink or swim. So I think if you bring some sort of element of risk and uncertainty to what you're doing, it can always -- it pays off by, um, often making you surprise your audience and do more than maybe what you were thinking. Um, but -- but I think -- so, I think it's more about representation, so it's not just like, know what points you wanna make, but who do you wanna be in that room. Do you wanna be like, friendly consensus-builder? You trying to make people feel good? Feel bad? Freak them out? Scare them? Bring them along? Like what are you intending to do?

 

JUSTIN: Well I -- but I think I wanna go back to something like a subtlety in what you said, which is you wanna be dangerous, you wanna sink or swim, these moments, you wanna have room to freestyle. But I think the strength is, if you have that rock-solid foundation and preparation and clarity of mission, off of that, it's fun to 15:03 freestyle and find room to add some unique elements. But if you just go in and say, I'm just gonna be me and just like let it all out, it can often be a hot mess. So I think it -- am I listening to you correctly to say, yes prepare, yes be clear on what you're trying to get across, and then after that is completely nailed, then you have the freedom to -- and the confidence -- to kind of freestyle and let some interesting branches grow off the tree.

 

LOUISA: I don't know if I believe that, cause that -- what that sounds like to me is like, you're preparing so that you can fake go outside of the box. And I don't --

 

JUSTIN: No, I'm not.

 

LOUISA: I don't mean that at all.

 

JUSTIN: I'm not saying fake outside the box, I'm saying, you can only go outside the box if you know what the box is. And if you don't know what the box is, you're just gonna be like a big puddle of water on the street and no one knows what to do with is.

 

LOUISA: Yeah, I also think there's something to be said though, like, you don't wanna over-prepare either. Right? Cause I've seen that in all kinds -- like, I think you see that in a professional world. Like, you see that in the -- like, in the commercial world, you see that in art, too. Like you don't wanna be too on the nose.

 

JUSTIN: Well no, that -- that -- perfection can be the enemy of --

 

LOUISA: Exactly.

 

JUSTIN: -- like, a really good job.

 

LOUISA: Of greatness, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You know, yeah. Perfection can be the enemy of greatness.

 

LOUISA: Totally.

 

JUSTIN: Um, but I'm not -- I -- and you see that often, people try and memorize a number and they can't remember the third decimal point and they get really hung up. The point wasn't whether it was 297 or 300, the point was, it was around 300. And so I think you don't wanna get caught up in those type of details, but you wanna know what you're going out there to accomplish. But let me just kind of tilt it a little bit. When you are getting ready to go out onstage with your band, what is your intention? Or, how do you get prepared? Or, how do you ensure you're gonna have a good show?

 

LOUISA: Um, you have to focus yourself, and then you also have to focus your connection to your band. And I think that this is probably the same like in a corporate setting, where like, if you're doing something as a team, like, make sure you're checked in with the team, and everybody's on board, and you're all moving towards the same goal, right? So I think that's important like the worst shows that I've had -- and you only ever remember the bad ones, right? Like you have a million great shows, but the ones that really stand out are the ones that were not that good. Um, those were always the ones in my experience where I didn't um, I didn't focus and check in with the band beforehand. So we weren't, uh, it, like, once you're onstage it's too late to remember that like, you didn't share this moment of unification. It's hard to get that back, right, in the moment, cause then suddenly too much stuff is happening all around you.

 

JUSTIN: You're in front of other people, and you're all said -- saying, why are you screwing up, why are you doing this, and --

 

LOUISA: Totally, totally.

 

JUSTIN: -- you've missed your chance. So, so --

 

LOUISA: Yeah. You missed -- you missed your chance.

 

JUSTIN: So as a leader, I think it's important, before you go out in public, to make sure the people on your team the people that are working with you, you've kind of lined them up, they're on your side, you're all pointed in the same direction.

 

LOUISA: Exactly.

 

JUSTIN: I -- I think that's fair. Um, let me ask this: you know, I think a lot of people might get nervous when they give presentations. Do you ever get nervous as a performer? Is there anything that you do to kind of re-enforce your own self-confidence? Or -- or how do you feel when you go out there?

 

LOUISA: I don't think it's nervousness exactly anymore. I don't know that it ever was, um, exactly nervousness. I -- but at the same time, I don't feel like you always feel, like, confidence. I feel like you -- I personally feel like there's this job to do, and you're entrusted with something. Um, and so the stakes feel high. But it's not nervousness, exactly. Um, we have -- so I started this ritual, um, a couple of years ago because we got asked to play this show at this very big venue, um, with no notice. Um, opening for the Ravenettes. They're uh, touring band had um, something had happened, and they'd -- uh, the opening band had cancelled, and so the venue called us and said, hey, can you fill in? We said, sure. So awesome band we love, gigantic venue, great opportunity, it was already sold out, so all great, but we were totally under-rehearsed. We did not -- we didn't have a show on the books, we didn't think this was gonna happen. It was like, oh --

 

JUSTIN: How much notice did they give you?

 

LOUISA: Uh, 24 hours.

 

JUSTIN: Oh. Oh wow, okay.

 

LOUISA: Yeah. So they called us at like 4pm the day before and said, can you do this tomorrow? So um, so we crammed into rehearsal, but we were definitely, definitely, definitely not ready. And we're a trio, so um, nowhere to hide, right, if you're not ready, and -- and you're -- and you're already counting mistakes that are gonna happen. Um, so -- but I had -- I had watched this TED Talk about um, the relationship between uh, confidence and um, postures. Like, pow -- and they -- this social scientist had discovered this thing about power postures and it was this thing about how like, in the animal kingdom, when uh, animals are sort of like alphas and uh, you know, big and confident, what they do is they literally take up these postures of like, making themselves big. So they'll spread their arms super wide and stand up. And that's a signal of like, power.

 

And so the experiment was, could you trick your brain into feeling powerful? 20:01 Like, in a powerless situation or a risky situation, could you trick your brain into feeling powerful if you took up the physical postures of power? So um, so for this show, basically I got the guys together in the green room, um, and I was like, alright, just bear with me, we're gonna do this experiment, and I made everybody make themselves big. So you just had to take up space. So you stand up super tall, you put your arms -- arms out, put your legs out, or you put your feet up on a table, you do whatever to make yourself bigger than you normally are. And you have to hold the posture for two minutes.

 

JUSTIN: So two minutes you're --

 

LOUISA: Two minutes --

 

JUSTIN: You just have to be big?

 

LOUISA: You just have to be big.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

LOUISA: And you -- like, you just be big. You take up space.

 

JUSTIN: Do you say anything?

 

LOUISA: You don't say anything, nope, nope.

 

JUSTIN: Are you laughing? Like, what are you doing?

 

LOUISA: You just take up space. You just sit there and you breathe through it. And you just make yourself big. And it's supposed to flood your brain with like testosterone and lower like, the stress levels in your brain and transform you in certain ways. And I didn't know if this was gonna work. But um, we were -- I was super stressed out, and we went out on stage and played the best show, hands down, that we've ever played.

 

JUSTIN: Really?

 

LOUISA: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: And what did -- what did you think it did for you? Did it connect the three of you? Did it give you a power, like what -- what -- what did it do?

 

LOUISA: I think it did all -- all three of those things. All -- but -- or -- all of those things. So I think it definitely connected us, right? Cause there was this sort of like, leap of faith that I was asking everybody to make, right? Cause this is ridiculous. Like, it doesn't make any sense.

 

JUSTIN: Stand up, put your arms out --

 

LOUISA: Like, stand up, put your arms out, just do it, right? Just like trust me on this, right? So um, so I think it was partly that, uh, like, you know, asking for someone stressed and them conferring it, right? So -- which then also like, confers leadership on you, right? So that's a thing. And then the actual act of doing this thing, like taking yourself out of small, like, postures of like, you know, weakness or whatever, before you go onstage, like, it did something. And I --

 

JUSTIN: That's kinda some base animal instinct at that point.

 

LOUISA: It is. It's intense. And, yep. And the thing is like, I make now, like, we do that every time. And the idea is that if you do it enough, you no longer even have to do the posture, you just have to think about it. And then you've already internalized, like, the sensation. And you can just do it. Do whatever it is that you're trying to do. So that's the trick.

 

JUSTIN: Wow, alright. So I can imagine people all over their offices at work, find a little closet, go in the bathroom, go in the stall, or go wherever you want, or go in the big conference room when no one's there, before anyone's there --

 

LOUISA: Anywhere.

 

JUSTIN: And just spread out your arms, make yourself big, and own that stage and own that room. Um, I think that's really interesting. Wow, that's -- that's a good -- that's a good header. That's a good point of view.

 

LOUISA: By the way, related, for the ladies out there, uh, cause I used to do this and um, in my day job, so anytime I have to take -- had to take a meeting, um, I would choose whatever chair in the room was the tallest chair in the room. And just hike it up to like -- like if you're in a room with those crappy broken chairs, and they're kinda, you know --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, those crappy chairs. Oh, so crappy.

 

LOUISA: No, but you know what I mean? Like...they're always --

 

JUSTIN: It could be any kind of chair at this point. Okay.

 

LOUISA: Yes, but often -- often they're broken. So --

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so what's going on? You -- you wanna be in the tallest chair?

 

LOUISA: You wanna be in the tallest chair.

 

JUSTIN: Why?

 

LOUISA: Because it's the same thing. It's like the same, I think, principle as like, making yourself big. Like, it's a posture of like confidence and power. So sit up like -- sit up straight. Be in the tallest chair.

 

JUSTIN: What if you -- what if you sit in a chair and it's one of the ones you can't figure out how to adjust, then what?

 

LOUISA: Move. Just move. Like, don't even -- like don't even bother with it. Like, get up and move to the chair next to you. Like, the next chair. Like find the one that's taller that works.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Alright. Well, there. Some good tips and tricks from the world of rock n'roll.

 

LOUISA: Yep.

 

JUSTIN: And uh, Louisa Black, uh, since the last time we were on the show, it was probably like a month and a half or two months ago, what's going on with the band Rich Girls?

 

LOUISA: Um, played a bunch of shows in New York City. Got the -- oh, the record came out.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah?

 

LOUISA: Um, coming out on vinyl in the -- in January.

 

JUSTIN: How's it selling? Last time you were on the show we talked about all the records sitting on the shelf. Are they finally flying off the shelf, or what?

 

LOUISA: This one did!

 

JUSTIN: Yeah?

 

LOUISA: Yeah, this one did.

 

JUSTIN: Ah, the Mr. Corpo Effect. Was this after you were on the Mr. Corpo podcast?

 

LOUISA: No. Uh, maybe. I can't remember.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, probably, alright. Well uh, where can anyone catch you -- is there any, you said vinyls coming out, is there any tours coming out? What's going on?

 

LOUISA: Yeah, we're working on a tour for the spring.

 

JUSTIN: West Coast, East Coast, give the people what they want.

 

LOUISA: Yeah. I think like, red state America.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright, there we go.

 

LOUISA: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Um, and where can people find you if they wanna follow along on your journey of Rich Girls?

 

LOUISA: Uh, well, we're on richgirlstheband.com. You know, we're all over the internets. Band Camp.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, you're on Instagram, Band Camp --

 

LOUISA: Insta, Twitter --

 

JUSTIN: Twitter. Okay. Alright, cool. Anything else?

 

LOUISA: Um, good to see you.

 

JUSTIN: Good to see you, too. Rob, thank so much for producing the show. Forlornhopewines.com, 25:01 thanks for sponsoring the show. Use the Mr. Corpo discount to buy some wine from them. And without further ado, uh, Louisa do you wanna join me on an outro of Adele's "Hello"?

 

LOUISA: Oh, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: I'll start and then you can join in, okay?

 

LOUISA: Okay. I don't know the words. You --

 

JUSTIN: I'll lead you. I'll lead you. Hello, it's me.

 

LOUISA AND JUSTIN: I was wondering if after all these years you'd like to speak. To go over everything. They say that time's supposed to heal ya, but I ain't done much healing. Hello...okay. Can I record it one more -- keep that, but just do one more take. Okay. Hello, it's me. I was -- I don't like that take. Hello, it's me. No, I don't like that one. Hello, it's me. I was wondering if after...26:09  

Ever wonder what it's like to be a working artist? Jason Polan comes on the MR CORPO podcast to talk about what time he wakes up in the morning (late), how late he works (late), why he won't hire a personal assistant, and how he got his start in the New York art world (by going rogue and hosting his own gallery hours inside another company's retail space). He also tells us how to join the world famous TACO BELL DRAWING CLUB. In the BONUS SECTION, Jason talks about getting rejected hundreds of times from The New Yorker magazine and provides inspiration for everyone to keep trying because eventually, something good will happen. Plus SUPER SECRET BONUS SECTION features an incognito guest who is so important he needed to hide his identity in order to be allowed to share his words of wisdom.

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Meet Jason Polan (11/23/2016)

 

JUSTIN: (singing) Don't try to compare us to another bad little fad. I'm the Mac and I'm bad, give you something that you never had. I'll make you bump, bump, wiggle and shake your rump, cause I'll be kicking the flavor that makes you wanna jump. How high? Real high. Cause I'm just so fly. A young lovable, huggable type of guy. And everything is to the back with a little slack, cause inside out is wiggity, wiggity, wiggity wack.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. That was Kris Kross, "Jump", brought to you by Mr. Corpo. Today's episode we are gonna talk about how to be an artist, and we have a very special guest, Jason Polan.

 

JASON: Hello everybody.

 

JUSTIN: So now that Jason said hello, let me tell you a little bit about him. One, he is a world-famous artist. Two, he collaborates with only the biggest and the best companies in the world. Warby Parker, Nike, Uniqlo, Russ and Daughters. He's recently published a book with Chronicle Books called Every Person in New York City. He recently did a limited edition print in collaboration with Sleepy Jones, which featured 50 ghost -- was it 50, or --

 

JASON: Uh, close. Like 40.

 

JUSTIN: Close. There was pregnant ghost, there was tourist ghost, there was referee ghost, was maybe my favorite. Did you have a favorite?

 

JASON: Yeah. I -- I thought the referee ghost was kind of a Foot Locker ghost.

 

JUSTIN: That's exactly right.

 

JASON: At first, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Exactly right. I thought that was fantastic. And they give those away for free. And we'll get back to that. But I thought that was just absolutely incredible. And I would describe Jason as the unofficial mayor of SoHo. I had the pleasure of spending an afternoon walking around with him and we couldn't walk half of a city block without someone walking across the street, waving at him, wanting to talk to him, I don't know whether he staged the whole thing and it was every single one of his friends that he had put on every corner, but he knows everybody, and everybody wants to know him. So we're lucky to have you. That was a long introduction, but now everyone knows everything about you.

 

JASON: Yeah. Thank you for having me, and I'll talk to you guys later.

 

JUSTIN: What else is there to say? Um, so let's jump right into it. Would you call yourself an artist? Are you an artist?

 

JASON: Uh, yeah. I think so. I feel a little cautious saying that I guess. Sometimes when people say, what do you do, I'll say I -- I like drawing things. Or, I do projects. Um, cause I don't wanna come off too, like, maybe serious. But yeah, I'm -- I am an artist.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, I mean it's interesting when you say, come off too serious. Cause I'm not even sure if it's too serious, or there's such power in the idea and the word of being an artist. It's something that people wish they were, or at one point wanted to be and gave up. And so for you to be able to claim that title, I think, is incredible. So when did you first own that, or when did you start to feel comfortable, feel like, actually I am an artist?

 

JASON: I -- well I started drawing when I was really little, like, I think, a lot of us. And I um, I got a lot of positive reaction when I was little, which made me feel good. So I wanted to kinda keep doing that. And I don't know when I first thought of myself as an artist. But um, my family and friends have always been so supportive of my art, so it's always been kinda my main focus. But um, like, professionally, I've always sort of thought, that's what I was gonna do. And um, I'm lucky that that is what I do.

 

JUSTIN: Well I -- it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, how -- how do you kind of get started? You're drawing, you're doing this, I think I came -- first came across your work maybe 10 years ago in the Levi store in Meatpacking District. You had a few drawings in the changing room. How did one thing lead to another? I mean, you're working with Nike now. This is one of the biggest, most powerful brands in the world.

 

JASON: You kind of figure out projects you like doing, and hopefully people who enjoy them respond to them, and then they want to see more. I moved to New York in 2004, and one of the first places I started doing project at, which they didn't even ask me to do projects at, was um, a store called Jack Spade, that Andy Spade, um, used to run. And they had a little bulletin board near the front and people could just post anything they wanted on it. So I would post -- I would have an art show every Friday, and I would bring, um, like a pack of gum or something for the people working there, so the show would be catered. And from that, I met a couple people that worked there and they in -- introduced me to Andy, and um, like you said, Sleepy Jones, that's -- that's -- Andy Spade is involved in that. And so I've been doing projects with him since I got here. And -- and I think you meet people that you like, and 05:00 are doing similar things to what you wanna be doing, and you um, and I guess you just kind of keep pushing.

 

JUSTIN: I love the idea of just creating your own little art gallery on a pin board. One of the questions I have for you as an artist, and maybe I'm coming from a corporate world, you're coming from a very different world, is this idea of how do you manage your time? You know? And I'll just speak for -- for myself, in the -- in the corporate world. It gives me a certain sense of self-worth and the idea that I'm working hard because I get up early in the morning, I get to work, I start sending emails, and I have meetings, and I'm doing all of this. And my time is very controlled. What does it look like for you? How do you think about time and space, and how do you spend your time? I mean, when do you get up, or how do you -- do you have certain dedicated hours? How do you think about it?

 

JASON: I'm totally the opposite. I wake up later. I probably wake up about 10 AM. Most of my day -- most of the -- during the daytime, when the sun is out, I'm usually just kinda wandering around. So I'm drawing. So I'm not -- I don't really think about it as working, but I am making stuff. And then um, most of the time I'm actually sitting at a computer scanning or just doing work work is later at night. I'll usually start maybe eight or nine pm, and then I'll work until two or three in the morning. So --

 

JUSTIN: Really? Wow.

 

JASON: Yeah, so I'll send most of my emails, kinda the opposite of you.

 

JUSTIN: Interesting, okay. And so everyone wakes up with like a special Jason Polan surprise in their inbox then?

 

JASON: Hopefully a good one. I really enjoy drawing. And I really enjoy wandering around. And I was just thinking about it. Wandering around SoHo is one of my favorite things. And then I don't dislike the scanning and stuff, but it's so not like what I thought I was signing up for when I was in college thinking, this is gonna be --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right. What about a personal assistant?

 

JASON: I do think about that sometimes.

 

JUSTIN: That a boy. That a boy.

 

JASON: But I do -- I do -- I think about what their tasks would be, and I like going to the post office and doing a lot of that stuff.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, I would never let anyone take anything to the post office for me. My favorite thing in the world is putting stamps on things and putting it into the mailbox. I mean --

 

JASON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: What's the hardest thing that people don't realize that goes into being an artist? Is there something that's like unseen?

 

JASON: It is work. I think a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people that have more normal jobs, um, they go to an office and they have a certain amount of time that they're spending at their work or job. And I -- and I think they might look at me and think, it's like he's tricking the system a little bit, but I think I'm mostly always working. I'm always thinking about projects or figuring out better ways of doing projects, or specifically thinking about titles. I think about titles of projects a lot.

 

JUSTIN: Does the title inspire the project? Or is the --

 

JASON: Often. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Really?

 

JASON: Yeah, like, I'll think about --

 

JUSTIN: Like, this is a clever title. Or this is a --

 

JASON: Yeah, like, the every piece of art in the Museum of Modern Art book was an idea as a concept before anything else.

 

JUSTIN: I love it. Well -- well that actually reminds me of, you are a founding member or the founder of the --

 

JASON: I like to say we're all founding members --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, of the --

 

JASON: I'm one of the first members of Taco Bell Drawing Club --

 

JUSTIN: Taco Beel Drawing Club. Now, tell everyone about the Taco Bell Drawing Club. It was featured in the New York Times, so you know it's legitimate, but as -- as I --

 

JASON: It was legitimate before that.

 

JUSTIN: It was legitimate. You don't need them to make it legitimate. But tell everyone about it. Because as I understand, you show up in random Taco Bells anywhere in the world at anytime, and you send out a call, like a bat signal to people, and they can come join you at Taco Bell, and they can just start drawing with you? Like, what happens?

 

JASON: Yes, yes. That's it. I, um, started -- or, we started Taco Bell Drawing Club right after I moved here, and um -- to New York. So it's over 10 years old. And I was drawing at Taco Bell by myself, and I thought it would be more fun if I invited people to come draw with me. And um, so I kinda put out a call. And that was right when I started to do blogs, hosting things on blogs. So I started a Taco Bell Drawing Club blog, and --

 

JUSTIN: But, do people show -- do people really show up? Or is it the same, you just have a couple friends and you get together?

 

JASON: Oh, definitely.

 

JUSTIN: Like, strangers --

 

JASON: I -- yeah. Cause I try to do a fairly regular one on Wednesdays in Manhattan. The Union -- or, just west of Union Square Taco Bell. So I'll usually be at that one. But any time you're at Taco Bell, you can draw, and you are then a member, if you want to be, of Taco Bell Drawing Club.

 

JUSTIN: Really? Okay. Cause I've always wanted to go, but I've been a little bit intimidated. Cause I've seen -- you have some other people that go that are actually pretty good artists.

 

JASON: We have Emmy Award winners, we have --

 

JUSTIN: Really? Wow.

 

JASON: -- really great little kids. We have great moms. All different people are members.

 

JUSTIN: So if I go, you can add to the list and say, there's like, this great podcaster that comes over...

 

JASON: There are excellent podcasters that are members, upcoming --

 

JUSTIN: Upcoming -- up and coming podcasters --

 

JASON: No, upcoming members --

 

JUSTIN: Yes, upcoming members. Now, can I get like a t-shirt, or a pin, or is there --

 

JASON: There's a laminated membership card you get if you come, that I write your name on.

 

JUSTIN: 10:03 Now, food figures prominently in your art, or your personal life, and -- and those things kind of intermingle. So I thought it would be fun to ask you, how would you rank these four things: hamburgers, pizza, french fries, and tacos?

 

JASON: I mean, I love them all. I'd probably go cheeseburger number one, pizza number two -- or, no. Pizza and tacos tied for number two. And then fries, three slash four.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright. Well there it is, now we know, Jason's official ranking --

 

JASON: But that might change, like, this afternoon.

 

JUSTIN: Depending on the mood. Well, I think food is very much, yeah, dependent on the mood. Alright. Well, now we know. Now, one of the segments that we have on the show, which we just started introducing, is this idea of Ask Mr. Corpo. And we invite listeners to write in their questions, they can a -- they can send me questions at mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. Because people wanna send them anonymously, so we do that, or through the social channels. So we've been getting some different questions during the week. But do you have any questions for Mr. Corpo?

 

JASON: In your book you talk a lot about working while you're at the office and not working when you're not at the office --

 

JUSTIN: Yes, yes.

 

JASON: And so when you're kind of breaking up activities or meetings or things during the day, how do you -- how do you do that?

 

JUSTIN: I like to get into work around 6:30 in the morning. And I do that because I wanna be calm, I want it to be quiet, I catch up on all my emails, I check what's outstanding, I send it out to the world. And then I'll have a tea and I'll read my favorite website and just feel calm and check my calendar. But basically from eight AM until five PM, I am in meetings every single minute of every single day.

 

JASON: Oh, weird.

 

JUSTIN: And there isn't even a lunch break in there. And so what happens is, you're in these meetings, everything's scheduled, and being an efficiency monster, I try and get every 30-minute meeting to end in 20 minutes. Or 25 minutes. And then you'll literally see me walking from the conference room in a speed-walk back to my desk, hitting my keyboard so that it turns back on, and trying to scan my inbox to see, is there any easy emails that I can keep the train rolling, answer the question, and keep my team going. And so I'm constantly doing that, every half-hour, every ten minutes, every hour. And just trying to keep things going and hopefully one of my meetings during the day gets cancelled, so that I can kind of catch up, keep everything going, and then I just try and get out at five. So you know, for me as a boss now, you have no time that is your own. And it's to make decisions for other people, it's to help them with whatever problem is happening, you know, whether someone wants to cry with you that day, or whether someone wants to ask for a raise, or whatever the case may be, that every minute is programmed. And so then I walk out of work and I don't wanna think about or talk about or look at work at all. And one of the things I found was, a long time ago, when blackberries were big, they'd given me a blackberry and I took it home. That little red flashing dot when you got a message would drive me crazy. And I would have it in the corner of a room and you'd look over and you'd see a red, flashing light. And I couldn't help it. I was like, I gotta go look at it. And so then I started hiding the Blackberry so that I couldn't see the red dot. And then eventually I just didn't even bring it home. And I was just like, I will never check it. And you know, Oprah Winfrey says, "You teach people how you wanna be treated." If you never answer an email outside of work, no one will expect you to answer it. So I just gave you a super long answer, but --

 

JASON: Well, cause I think about that a lot, with emails, cause I will often have an email that I'll kind of sit on for a week and a half, and I'll finally send it, or I'll finally write it and send it, and that process itself will take about 40 seconds. And I'll think, why didn't I do that? This email was driving me crazy.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right. If there's something that's outstanding or I haven't gotten to, it becomes this block for me.

 

JASON: Right.

 

JUSTIN: It becomes this thing where I didn't do it right away, so now there's almost this invisible forcefield keeping me from just taking that quick action -- you said 40 seconds -- and just doing it.

 

JASON: Uh huh.

 

JUSTIN: And it floats in my head, and I'm walking down the street, or as I'm going to bed --

 

JASON: Always on your to do list?

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, and I'm going to bed and I'm like, oh, I need to get back to that person. And why don't I just do it in that moment so that I can let go? But I've become much more conscientious of that just to allow me to sleep better at night. If I can think of it, I'll try and solve it right in that moment. But yeah, there's this magical moment of, either I reply right away and we're all happy, or it becomes this insurmountable mountain.

 

JASON : Uh huh.

 

JUSTIN: Even though it is just click and say, no, I don't wanna be there Wednesday at noon. We're gonna go right into our bonus section. And we like to do a little sing-song with this. Bonus section! Bonus section! 15:00 Bonus section! Come on, Jason! Say something! Bonus section!

 

JASON: Bonus section. Was that exciting at the end there?

 

JUSTIN: That was awesome. Alright. We're in the bonus section, everybody. And today we're gonna talk about how to deal with rejection.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Have you had to deal with rejection in -- in your world, as an artist? Like, what is that like?

 

JASON: Yeah. All the time. I used to go into The New Yorker to try to sell cartoons and that was several no's a week. There's a cartoon editor named Robert Mankoff and I had heard when I was in college that people would go in on Tuesdays and drop off their cartoons to get checked out for The New Yorker. So when I moved to New York I thought, I am going to do that. So I went to Conde Nast, where The New Yorker was in Times Square at the time, and there's security guards and people stopping idiots like me from doing that kind of thing.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right, right.

 

JASON: And um, I finally got in to see the cartoon editor to show him my batch, cause people would bring him batches of about ten cartoons, and then he looked at my cartoons and it was so sad. Cause he was just kind of very blatant in his critique of my un-funniness. And -- but at the end of our three-minute meeting, he said, but you can come back if you want. So I went back with a batch of cartoons and it was just very depressing, cause he would look at my cartoons and then I would get really no response. I would spend hours and hours and he would take 15 seconds to look through all my cartoons. And then after -- or initially, they will call you on a Thursday. So the first couple weeks I was waiting for that call on the Thursday --

 

JUSTIN: Oh yeah, yeah.

 

JASON: And of course I didn't get that call. And then six months later, they bought one. They called on a Thursday, and it was very exciting. But it was a lot of rejection.

 

JUSTIN: So that's a -- I mean, that's hundreds of rejections for one yes.

 

JASON: I think I have a pile of about 500 of them.

 

JUSTIN: Wow.

 

JASON: Which I think I'm pretty lucky. I think there are a lot of people that go for years.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

JASON: So I've had some rejection.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, those are great insights from Jason on the idea of a thousand rejections to get to that "yes" in the art world. Now, originally I wanted to talk about rejection in the workplace, I wanted to talk about what happens when co-workers disagree, when your boss rejects your idea. But I actually have a new idea. I wanna take this conversation deeper. I wanna go into the super secret bonus section. Super secret bonus section. Super secret bonus section. Super secret bonus section.

 

Now, our listeners may not know this, but we have a super secret guest who's been sitting in the corner of the studio listening to this podcast, having no idea they would be invited on, but I would like to invite them on now. I will call them by their code name, Jay. Jay, come on up here. Take over Jason's mic, I've got a question to ask you about rejection.

 

JAY: Hi, everyone.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, that's Jay. I'm gonna withhold his name and his title and his job for his own security. But Jay's job is to recruit people, and interview people, and you interview -- would you say, hundreds of people a month?

 

JAY: That's probably a good number.

 

JUSTIN: So hundreds of people a month, let's say thousands of people a year. I mean, oh my gosh, that's a lot when I think about it. And you're trying to find talent, you're trying to hire people, you're trying to get people interested. But I imagine part of that job is also having to reject people or be rejected by them. Is -- is that a part of your job?

 

JAY: That is definitely a part of my job, and it's not my favorite part of the job, but it is a part that, you know, you wanna be respectful of people's time. And the energy they put forth during the process. And so, you have to have that sometimes tough conversation.

 

JUSTIN: Do you call that person? Do you email that person? What's your approach in letting someone know, we're not gonna hire you?

 

JAY: Well, there's different levels of like, in the process. So if they've just come in and had like a quick conversation with a hiring manager, and we're not that far along, maybe is -- an email's okay. Just to say, hey, right now is not the right timing, or we're gonna get another direction. But if they have come in, they've done a project, their interview with a panel, they spent several hours with us, then I definitely wanna give them a call. Because I believe that you know, I've been on the other side, and -- and I've gotten the email or not gotten an email and just waited and like, wondered. And that's the worst. So, I think people really respect, you know, a phone call direct. Here's the feedback. These are the reason why. You know, I definitely want to stay in touch, cause maybe it's not this role, maybe it's not a role, maybe it's all about timing, so like, let's -- let's keep in touch and like, I will keep you posted if anything else comes about. But you know, here is why we're not moving forward. And for better or worse, 90 percent of the time, people are really respectful that you gave them the time and the -- and like, you were direct with them. And especially in the creative spaces, I think they want the feedback even more.

 

JUSTIN: 20:00 Now, what do you do -- you call the number, no one's answering, and it goes to voicemail. Now what? Do you hang up? Do you leave a voicemail? Cause if I got a voicemail and it said, "Hey, this is Jay, from the company, give me a call," like, that doesn't sound good. Or, how do you -- do you control your voice, or do you not leave a voicemail? What's the rule on that?

 

JAY: I usually try to set up a time to talk so that there is no missed connection. So like, I will shoot them an email or a text and say hey, you know, what's your schedule like this afternoon? Or, when are you free? When can we talk? That way, that they're ready, I'm ready, we have --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

JAY: -- landed on an exact time to talk, so there isn't that. If it was that case, I would leave a voicemail and say, "Hey, as we discussed, I'm just giving you a call."

 

JUSTIN: You're interviewing people. Sometimes people say no to you.

 

JAY: It goes both ways. And it -- you know? And again, I'm -- I appreciate directness, and like open, honest conversation, like, I'll be transparent if they're transparent with me, and that -- that goes a long way.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah.

 

JAY: And if someone then, you know, writes me an email after we've gone through a long process, and you know, we've had 'em out, we've done all these things and we are excited about them, and they write me an email and say, "I'm not gonna do this," I'm kind of somewhat hurt cause it's like, hey, you know, let's talk about this on the phone, I less -- you know, I understand and I appreciate it, but like, you know, we've come this far, let's --let's talk it out. So both -- goes both ways.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. I mean, I -- when I'm listening to you it really makes me feel like this idea of honesty is the best policy. And this idea of over-communicating and making sure you're sharing. And this is -- at the end of the day, it's sure, you're interviewing, you're trying for a job, but you're also just like a human to a human, and let's just treat each other um, with respect and -- and let them know what's really going on. So --

 

JAY: Definitely.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, well, Jay, thanks for uh, the super surprise, super secret bonus section. We'll move out of the rejection zone and we will move on with the show. Thanks for joining us. Now slowly step away from the mic, and let the professional Jason back up here. Jason, thank you for coming on the podcast today. Um, I'd like to give you a moment just to share where can people find you?

 

JASON: I -- I -- most of my stuff is on Instagram, cause I love Instagram, and I'm just at a project with Nike, just at a project with Uniqlo, so maybe take a look at those things.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, yeah I saw that that Nike just opened a flagship down in SoHo and had you do some stuff?

 

JASON: Yeah, Spring and Broadway, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: What did you do with them?

 

JASON: Um, these -- they have Air Force Ones that you can have custom made. So you can pick different graphics to put on them. So you can put a -- a pizza slice that I drew, or a pretzel, or a hot dog, or all different things onto Air Force Ones.

 

JUSTIN: That's awesome.

 

JASON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: I love that. Alright. So check out Instagram. Your handle is Jason Polan, right?

 

JASON: Yep. The country without the D. That's it.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, thanks for -- thanks for making that clear. Um, now of course, before we go, I wanna thank our sponsors, Forlorn Hope Wines. Just go to forlornhopewines.com, get your discount with Mr. Corpo, 15 percent off, and then also, I just wanna give a special nod to the Neuehouse (?), uh, we are fortunate enough to record at their flagship location in midtown Manhattan. And Neuehouse is a private work space. I call it the Rolls Royce of shared working spaces where creatives, entrepreneurs, artists, all different people come together, do their work, get to hang out, go to cocktail hours, and they actually curate incredible cultural content here, and do a lot of talks and interesting things like that. So check it out when you get a chance, and we're thankful for their space. And that's it for the episode today. Thanks.

 

Oh, Rob is looking at me, because I did not thank my producer, Rob. Rob, thank you for producing today.

 

JASON: Thanks, Rob.

 

(music)

 

23:56

 

Allison Behringer is the creator and host of the world famous podcast - THE INTERN (+1 million downloads). On this episode, Allison talks about what to do on the first day of work, whether or not to drink all the free alcohol at office parties, and neither confirms nor denies whether she hooked up with anyone at her office. The BONUS SECTION promotes the idea of honesty being the best policy at work (and life) and ASK MR CORPO section explains why MR CORPO always imagines you are standing in a bubble when he is talking to you.

LISTEN HERE: 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Meet Allison Behringer: World Famous Intern (11/16/2016)

JUSTIN: (singing) Allison. I know this world is hurting you. Oh, Allison. My aim is true.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today we're gonna talk about how to be an intern. And we have a super special guest who is really good at being an intern. Her name is Allison Behringer, in fact she had a podcast that was called The Intern. So in anyone in the world that might be well-qualified to go on a podcast and talk about being an intern, I think it would be Allison. But a few more things about Allison before we get started. One, she's an absolutely fantastic person. I have that on good authority from Rob. The second thing we wanna know about Allison, she has started nonprofits, she has taught in Thailand, she's lived in India. So she's super interesting.

 

And her internship was at BetaWorks, which is some type of incubator-startup-tech company. And she was tasked with the very amorphous job of hey, why don't you come on over here and start a podcast, whatever that means. And not only did she start a podcast, but the intern podcast was world-famous, had, I'm gonna say, over 100,000 downloads, maybe just less than that a mil -- more than that, but less than a million, but more than a million. Somewhere around a million. Okay, she's giving me a thumbs down, a little bit less than a million. And I really encourage you to go check it out, we'll give you all the details later, but she is thoughtful, insightful, and she made a bunch of mistakes along the way. So let's get to work and start talking about it. Hi, Allison.

 

ALLISON: Hey, Justin. Thanks so much for the very flattering introduction.

 

JUSTIN: Yes, that's what you get on this show. You know, nothing but kind words. So what do you do first? I don't wanna spend time talking about how you get an internship, cause I think for each person that's gonna be very different. But let's say it's Day One of your intern, you show up, you don't know anyone, what happens next? What do you do?

 

ALLISON: So if you listen to The Intern, you'll know that it took me a little bit to figure that out. Um, so I'm speaking only in hindsight with all my wisdom. Um, my first priority was getting to know everyone and really making sure that I was going out of my way to meet everyone.

 

JUSTIN: How do you meet people? I mean, I listened to the podcast a little bit --

 

ALLISON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: -- I think you said you stuck -- you kind of like held down the kitchen area and tried to talk to people --

 

ALLISON: Yeah!

 

JUSTIN: -- but what did you do? Like, tell me -- I want our listeners to know, it's your first day, you're in the office, you're an intern, no one knows what the heck you're doing there. Did you just walk up and shake people's hands? Like, what happened?

 

ALLISON: Yeah, you know, I mean, I -- at BetaWorks we had the luxury of a kitchen, coffee, snacks, all the things, almond butter, KIND bars. Um, and so without a lot to do I would just kinda go into the kitchen, be making tea, you know, maybe like a third cup of tea and someone would come over. And I'd be like, oh you know, how do you use the coffee machine? Like, just strike up a very small conversation. BetaWorks is made up of a bunch of small companies, or very early-stage companies. A few founders. And so everyone's kinda working in small pods. But because I was working by myself, um, I didn't kinda have a built-in group to fall back on. I didn't have that built-in friend group. Um, so that kinda made me have to -- if I wanted to have friends at work or people to sit with at lunch, I kinda had to -- um, had to meet people. I'm a very social creature. So...

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. I mean, I think it -- it seems to me that's one of the challenges of being an intern. When you're hired to a full-time job, you've got a manager, you've got a team, you've got a role to do, everyone knows why you're there. But often when you are an intern, it's kind of this bonus situation. And -- and people don't know exactly what to do with you. They don't know how to treat you. Do they treat you as a co-worker? Do they treat you as their little brother, their little sister? And so I'd imagine that's kind of a difficult dynamic, existing between worlds.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah. I imagine it's different in different industries. But BetaWorks, because it was pretty small, like, I never really felt like I was treated like a lowly intern. Like, I was never asked to get coffee or anything. The more that I acted like not an intern and the more I acted like a podcast producer, the more people treated me as such.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, so you're new in the office, you're an intern, you're taking the initiative to introduce yourself to other people and -- and let them know you're here, and let them know what you're working on. In -- in this BetaWorks office, you guys did a lot of, sounded like company drinks, or after-work drinks. 05:00 At the office they had free drinks, things like that, these mixers. What's your take on that social drinking work atmosphere, from the perspective of an intern? Is there advantages to being in -- an intern in that? Is there drawbacks to that? Or did the alcohol lubricate the conversation? How did that go?

 

ALLISON: I think in many ways, alcohol is an equalizer. Everyone's kind of becomes more on an equal plane. And again, I came from teaching. So coming into this, you know, we used to call, um, we'd do happy hour drinks every other month or so with my teacher friends. And we would call it book club as like a code word, so the kids didn't know. You know, of course they think we're like the lamest people on earth. You know, like the 10th graders think, yeah, that -- our teacher could never do that. But we'd call it book club. And so like, to be drinking in my place of work just felt like, should I be -- am I allowed to do this? You know, like cheers-ing with my boss before we knock back a beer? Like, this feels so weird. It feels so uncomfortable. And I will say, probably, got a little too drunk. You know, didn't do anything embarrassing, but like yeah, maybe got a little too drunk at some of those --

 

JUSTIN: Is that nerves, or you're just -- the cocktails were good, or what was it?

 

ALLISON: I mean, it's free booze. So again, like, coming from being like underpaid, not having any of those perks --

 

JUSTIN: You gotta take advantage of it.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, like I'm a sucker for anything free. Which is why I think I gained like five pounds in my first couple months there, cause of all the free food. It's like -- it's in front of you, why not? Same with the beer at these happy hour things. Um, but I think it's like -- I think it's definitely advantageous as an intern because it can put you kind of on the same level as just -- everyone's hanging out after work, relaxing a little bit, lowers the stakes, um --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

ALLISON: I will say though, that I think that in startups there's this um, feeling of like, we're all family, we're drinking together, we're all friends. At the end of the day, these people aren't your friends. Like, they're your co-workers. And the point of drinking together after work, yeah, it's for like, camaraderie and certainly like, I made a lot of good friends. But it's a place with business, and at the end of their day, the goal is to make money. And so I think that sometimes all the freebies and drinking can um...not distract you, but can um...

 

JUSTIN: Well, can get confusing, too. I'd imagine.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So you know, that was one of my questions. So when I listened to the podcast, there was one guy, I think it was in one of the early episodes, who said he liked to go dancing. And then he very strangely kind of said he likes to go dancing by himself. But you explain that ultimately he did invite you to go dancing. But I'm not sure if you ever followed up. Did you in fact go dancing with this guy?

 

ALLISON: You know, I didn't. But he's -- he's become a good friend. And I think he was just being awkward. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. But -- but I guess I -- it gets me, the -- the question I was just curious if there was a -- a wormhole there. But the question for me is, yeah, when does it come from hey, we're at work, we're sharing free cocktails to, did this guy just ask me out? Did he just ask me to go dancing with him? Which is a pretty like, amazing first date move, but --

 

ALLISON: Right, right, right.

 

JUSTIN: -- but like, was there any of that dynamic? Did you feel that tension in the air? Did you see other examples where people took it one step too far and this was their dating pool?

 

ALLISON: Completely off the record?

 

(music)

 

ALLISON: Yeah, so back on the record, you know, I think, um -- I think sometimes relationships do come out of, of -- you know, working situations. I think it, you know, generally like, can get sticky sometimes. Cause then you're -- you're sitting right next to them. But I think that it's mostly -- was mostly just friendships. Like, there's a lot of people who I worked with at BetaWorks that -- they've left BetaWorks, I've left BetaWorks, and we still hang out.

 

JUSTIN: That's cool. So actually one of the questions I had, cause um, you know, our listeners won't know this, but um, in fact, I'm pretty old dude and Allison's a young person. So one of the questions I have is, how much did you exchange social media information? So you're there, you're in a new office, you're meeting new people. At what point do you cross the bridge of, oh, are you on Instagram? And then, change -- exchange user names and start following each other?

 

ALLISON: All the tech people at BetaWorks were really into Twitter. And I just never really used Twitter. Um...but because it was a -- a, um...a tech company and a social media company, and so many of the products are built onto social media platforms and all of that, everyone's following each other on everything. Um...

 

JUSTIN: Interesting. Now, do you feel pressure to like, like photos or things that -- Twitter's one thing if you're posting about work, and I understand that, but on the more social side of things, did you feel pressure to keep liking what they were posting or did you -- did it give you an insight you didn't wanna have to your co-workers? Is there pluses or minuses of sharing your social media content?

 

ALLISON: I don't know who followed who first. But my boss and I follow each other on Instagram. 10:00 But also because I started manning the BetaWorks Instagram account. And I would definitely like, like his pictures of his kids, you know, just to show, you know, everyone loves -- I don't know if you care -- it's --

 

JUSTIN: Well, that's boring. Yeah, no. No, I don't have any kids but you had to like all the pictures of his kids?

 

ALLISON: I mean, I wasn't like going through and liking the pictures. But they came up, you know, make sure you give it a like.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, cause it -- people would be sensitive about the kids, right?

 

ALLISON: People with kids love talking about their kids, right? Right?

 

JUSTIN: Yes, that's true. That's true. Alright. So play it safe. Always like the pictures of the kids. That's Allison's advice.

 

ALLISON: And just ask people about their kids.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Alright, so -- so let me change gears a little bit, and you know, on this podcast, as you're going through the process of going to work at this new company, and the trials and tribulations, you used your Grandpa as your sounding board for advice. How do I sign the contract, how do I ask for a raise, what do I do in this moment, I'm interviewing for a new job, can we practice? Did you find it useful or did you find there's a generational gap?

 

ALLISON: You know, one thing about my grandfather is that he -- he definitely gives advice and he has a lot of wisdom. But I think that what makes him a special old person is that he recognizes that things have changed. And anytime he gives me advice, he's like, "But you know, I know the workplace is different."

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

ALLISON: Or like, you know, things are changing. Um, I think that my grandpa's advice had a funny way of not making sense in the beginning. And then by the end of the episode, by the end of whatever adventure I was on, there was a good nugget. In episode five of The Intern, I document my experience asking for a raise. And my grandfather's kind of the first person that I go to after I'm like, I'm gonna ask for a raise. Um, and I tell him all the insane salaries that are being made in the tech world. And I tell him what I'm asking for, and he's like, no way, no way.

 

JUSTIN: I agreed with him when I was listening to the episode, yes.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, so, okay. So you did agree with him in the beginning of that? Yeah. Um...

 

JUSTIN: Well I agreed -- just to bring our listeners up to speed, so -- so basically Allison had been working at this company for three months --

 

ALLISON: Right.

 

JUSTIN: And then she goes to her grandfather and says, hey, grand --

 

ALLISON: Six months at the time.

 

JUSTIN: Si -- it was six months? Okay, I thought it was three months. And says, I'm gonna go ask for a raise. And your grandpa was like, you're crazy. And you know, it was interesting um, in the context of you know, our episode last week was about how to get a raise. And I had a very different approach then maybe how your grandfather approached it, which was, he said, "You have to justify it by how much sales have you added? Or how much money have you brought into the company?" And that is the direct line to how much you can get a raise and how you justify your work. Is that right?

 

ALLISON: Right, right. Right, right, right. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know that that was necessarily good advice for my situation. But at the end of the day, I think the reason why I didn't get a raise was because my job wasn't -- isn't like, tied to profits. At BetaWorks, there wasn't an argument to be made for that.

 

JUSTIN: It started as an internship. Became a really, you know, important, great job. But to ask for that right off the bat, it was gutsy. But I thought there were a few plays you could have had there to actually get some more money. You did in fact end up getting a little bit more money.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Um, you got 5,000 extra bucks. Which is every little bit adds up --

 

ALLISON: Which is great, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: And as they point out on the podcast, ten percent. They can lord it over you. Cause ten percent sounds great. But when it's only 5,000 you're like --

 

ALLISON: Right.

 

JUSTIN:  ,  Thi. You know?

 

ALLISON: Right, right.

 

JUSTIN: But uh, you know, no. I thought that was a -- that was a -- a gutsy move when -- when you did that. I thought one of the things that was interesting was, you went around your office and you asked everyone how much money they made. Now, let me just say for our listeners, I -- as an intern, if you're listening to this, I do not recommend you go around the office and ask everyone --

 

ALLISON: Neither do I.

 

JUSTIN: -- how much money they make. That is not one of the pieces of advice we're leaving on this show. But you know, what -- I -- I was actually pretty surprised. Was that your own idea, that just felt normal to you?

 

ALLISON: You know, I had, um, the great fortune of working with this woman named Katelyn Prest, is my editor. So kind of she -- we would meet once a week, talk about episode ideas, structure, and she was the one who encouraged me to do this. Um, to ask people.

 

JUSTIN: To create a confrontation or an awkward moment? Or just --

 

ALLISON: Um...

 

JUSTIN: -- like, pull back the curtain, I guess, is kind of what I thought it did.

 

ALLISON: Well you know, I was very curious what people made. But I was a little nervous about doing that. Um, and what's interesting is, while I was very much like so unsure as an intern, right -- you're an intern, you don't know what rules there are. You don't know what lines you're crossing. And yet, I had this um...mandate, if you will, to ask questions. And like, push boundaries, cause that was the point of the intern. And you know, it was -- it was astounding. I would say, half the people I asked told me their salary, no problem. The other half were like, uh, uh, uh. What? And I also, like, I really didn't know if I was allowed to be doing this. I didn't know. And at --

 

JUSTIN: That very well could be against company policy. I mean, you talked about that it's legally, you're allowed to ask. But a company policy may discourage it, or --

 

ALLISON: Right, right. And like, I'm -- I'm not trying to get fired. Like, I'm trying to stay. But I'm also trying to make a good podcast.

 

JUSTIN: You put forward the idea that -- of, what about 15:07 salary transparency, and -- you know, what are the pluses and the minuses of this, and you know, the -- the gender pay gap is a real issue. Um, and I have to say, you know, listening to it and having now worked at a lot of companies and hired a lot of people, there's no easy way to go about it. Um, you know, cause people have different experiences and how do you put a price tag on different, you know, um, backgrounds that they have or different companies they worked at or whatever the situation may be. And so it can get complicated unless you make it so simple that everyone is the same, or everyone at this level is exactly the same. And then I think transparency works. But to just lift up the curtain and be like, here's what every single person in the office makes, and now everyone knows --

 

ALLISON: Yeah, you got a mutiny on your hands.

 

JUSTIN: Mutiny!

 

ALLISON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Absolutely. Congratulations to you for kind of tackling a lot of interesting topics through this podcast and the -- and like I said, it's called the intern and there's seven episodes?

 

ALLISON: Eight.

 

JUSTIN: Eight episodes. And you know, there's a -- there's a few interesting topics. Another one is diversity in the workplace. Um, I think you did a great job tackling that difficult topic. And so, you know, it was really impressive to kind of follow you on your journey from, you walk in the first day, you don't know anyone, I loved when you talk about all the acronyms and secret codes everyone has, you talked about making a list. It brought me back to my first day on the job, where it sounds like everyone in the room is smarter than you, cause there's like, "The APS on the BOM, you know, on the LTD..." and you're just like, oh my gosh, these people are so smart. And you're writing them down and you don't know them. And about -- it's like you don't ever notice, but then 30 days later, all of a sudden, you're saying those acronyms, right? Did you have that experience?

 

ALLISON: Oh my gosh, I was um...I was talking to a radio producer friend of mine, and talking about this, you know, this company. And this was only a month or two into my time at BetaWorks. "Yeah, such and such company, they just raised their series A." And my friend goes --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, what's that?

 

ALLISON: "What the fuck is a series A?"

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

ALLISON: And I was like, oh, wow. I had no idea what that was either just a few months ago. But it just so easily seeps into -- into your language.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. And it can work even on catch phrases when you're in the office. Like, there's certain catch phrases someone'll say something, and all of a sudden someone else says it, and then all of a sudden, everyone's saying, "Now we're cooking with grease." It's like, you know, who made that up? It's like, oh, I did. So I think you had a fantastic run there. Let me just leave this segment of How To Be An Intern with a last piece of advice from you. Looking back on your experience, looking back at joining this company, being new, um, thinking of someone who might be in a similar situation, is there anything you would do different, or any piece of advice that you'd be like, make sure to do this, or make sure not to do that?

 

ALLISON: I wish that maybe I would have like, owned the fact that I didn't know stuff, and -- and -- and eventually I started using that to my advantage. Like, my outsider perspective, I think, was valuable. And like, what made the podcast unique. But in the beginning I was just like, oh my gosh, I have to learn all the lingo, I need to think like these people think. I don't know. I -- I feel like I reflected every kind of passage of my life, like when I was a senior in high school I was like, Allison, why weren't you more competent as a freshman? Same thing in college. Like --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

ALLISON: Same thing in a -- in a first job. And it's like, looking back to the beginning of BetaWorks, I was the same person with the same drive and intelligence and ambition, but for some reason I didn't think I had it then. So just like, I don't know what it is.

 

JUSTIN: Well, they're -- well, they're all stepping stones.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You know? And I think we're all finding our -- our way, getting different experiences so that we can be more confident or be better at whatever we do next. But --

 

ALLISON: Yeah. When you start something new, are you now like...

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, you know, it's interesting...

 

ALLISON: Starting at a higher place of confidence?

 

JUSTIN: It's interesting. Definitely. I mean, I was so shy as just someone growing up. Like, I never could talk to a girl, you know, for example. Like, I was just so shy. I'm painfully shy, I'm a little bit of an introvert. And I think over time, you go to college and you're crammed together with boys and girls, you have to talk to girls, whether you can or not. And you make a lot of mistakes. It's a safe place to make a mistake. And then you go to work, and for me, in fashion retail, it's 95 percent women. So okay, now I can start to build up my confidence and interactions, and now I'm probably more normal. But you know? Um...I'm just getting to the normal phase.

 

ALLISON: Just reaching...

 

JUSTIN: But no. It's -- it's hard to hold onto that confidence, um --

 

ALLISON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: -- in everything that you do. Um...but I think being able to acknowledge...cause you don't wanna get down on yourself. You don't wanna lose confidence. So for me it's about reminding myself, or when I have a new person join the team, I go out of my way to talk to them at least once a week in private and say, it's natural that you're gonna feel like you don't know what's going on. And it's natural that you're not gonna feel as confident as you did at that last company. This is the learning curve. And just give them permission to live in this uncertainty while they're building up their comfort and their confidence, I think, is really important. Because you go to a new job, 20:03you want to impress everyone. But guess what? Everyone else knows where the bathroom is. And everyone else knows how to work the coffee machine and you don't. We're all humans. And so if you start from there, I think uh, you can build those relationships faster. And you know, listening to you on the podcast, it sound like you -- you found your way into that. So...

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah. Eventually.

 

JUSTIN: Alright. Well -- well Allison, thanks for your advice on how to be an intern. Don't go anywhere, cause we've got a couple other segments. We wanna ask you some other questions.

 

Alright, and now a quick word from our sponsors. Today's show is brought to you by Forlorn Hope Wines. As always, I wanna give a shoutout to the winemaker, Matt Rorick. But I have exciting news today. They have launched a wine club. Go to forlornhopewines.com and click on the Wine Club button. You can subscribe for six bottles of wine, or 12 bottles of wine. And here's the thing: the wine club is all the exclusive stuff. It's all of Matt Rorick's secret, small-batch, not-for-sale anywhere else, not in restaurants, not available on the website. It's all the super crazy, exclusive, experimental stuff. So get on there. Use the Mr. Corpo discount: M-R-C-O-R-P-O. I don't know why I feel like I have to spell that but, Allison --

 

ALLISON: Can you spell the name of the company?

 

JUSTIN: Forlorn Hope? F-O-R-L-O-R-N, H-O-P-E, W-I-N-E. Was that a test cause I've had two beers?

 

ALLISON: That is correct.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. I win the spelling bee. Alright, okay, thanks.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Alright everybody. It's time for the bonus section. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on Allison! Bonus section! Bonus section! I love you! Bonus section. On today's bonus section, we're gonna talk about honesty is the best policy. When in doubt, tell the truth.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: There's a lot of positioning when you're in the workplace. There's a lot of, I wanna look good. I don't want someone to think I don't know something. I can't say this because politically it might be dangerous. And there may be a time and place for all those little games to be happening. But I just wanna come out and say it: honesty is the best policy. Now, you've heard me say before that I love this idea of efficiency through over-communication. And to me part of over-communication is being honest and taking the time to explain things. And I wanna use a few examples because I've got Allison here from the intern podcast. There's a few examples on your show, actually, Allison, when I was listening, and I thought wow, that got way more complicated and there were a lot of hurt feelings when there didn't have to be.

 

And one of these examples was, every week at BetaWorks they introduce the new employees. And everyone claps, and everyone's super exciting. And on the podcast, you talk about the first few weeks, they would say, are there any new people we need to introduce? And your boss wouldn't introduce you. And you didn't have any explanation. And this went on -- how long did this go on? Two weeks at least. How long?

 

ALLISON: Oh, I think like three or four weeks. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So, three or four weeks. Every week, they're saying, who's the new employee? Allison, every week, has worn her favorite outfit, knowing, this is my moment to shine, and no one calls your name. It's like this roller coaster of emotions. You think this is your moment, they're gonna say your name, and then they don't.

 

ALLISON: Yeah. Also, by this point, I'd introduced myself to half the office. So like, everyone would kinda look at me. Like, it'd be like, any new employees? And everyone would look at me and I'd be like...

 

JUSTIN: What are you supposed to do? You gotta raise your hand? Or --

 

ALLISON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So anyway, it was interesting, I'm listening to you, and actually in the podcast, it -- you -- you explain, I -- I really appreciated your honesty in the podcast. It was one of the things that really made me connect with your story. But you know, it started to lead to some insecurities. It started to feel like, well, why aren't I getting introduced? Are they embarrassed of me? Have I done something wrong? Is it only real employees that make a lot of money that get introduced and interns are not worth anything? And so this goes on, and it's kinda left unresolved, and then I think it's a few months later that you kind of circle back with your boss and you say -- and, or I think he admitted to you, well, Allison, not everyone at the company knew I had hired you, and this job wasn't really clear, so I didn't -- that's why I didn't introduce you when you first started. And your reaction to that was, oh, okay, that makes sense, right?

 

ALLISON: Yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: I mean, still some hurt feelings, but you know, I listened to that and I just thought, man, what a bozo. Why didn't he pull you aside and after that first meeting, 25:02say, hey, listen Allison, I'm super excited to have you here. But right now it's just a little bit touchy and not everyone knows you're -- you're hired. So I wanna fly below the radar and then we'll announce you a little bit later. Would that have made a difference in your experience?

 

ALLISON: To be totally frank, there's a lot of things that happened with The Intern, especially at the beginning, that I wasn't sure if were being like, played up for the drama of it all.

 

JUSTIN: Interesting.

 

ALLISON: Cause I did, in a lot of ways, especially in the beginning, before I kinda had my grip on what was going on, felt very much like a guinea pig, myself. Especially cause I was being asked to document myself. And so everything that was happening in real time was potential events to be included in this serialized podcast that was my life, and experience. So I don't know. I have some questions that I think will probably never be resolved. Um, but yeah. I mean, to answer your question, it did make me feel like, am I a real intern here. But then, like, other interns were getting introduced. And then I was like, is it just that I'm this weird side project, and I'm not really part of the company, is that why?

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean --

 

ALLISON: And then you just end up like, creating all these scenarios in your head, right?

 

JUSTIN: No, your mind can go crazy with the possibilities and -- and usually it's not in a good way, right?

 

ALLISON: No, no, never.

 

JUSTIN: It's not like delusions of grandeur. It's like, oh my gosh, well I wasn't very nice to him. I didn't like that photo of his kid the other day. I wonder if that's why he didn't introduce me. You know? But I -- but I think the point is, you know, this general philosophy of, when in doubt tell the truth, or honesty is the best policy, you know, it really comes down to you wanna treat each person like a human being. And you wanna let them know what's going on. And it may not be a big deal for James that he didn't introduce you and he has a reason in his head, but the fact that he wasn't able to just come to you and say honestly, here's why I didn't introduce you, it led to all these misgivings and these different feelings. And that's just the most simple, basic example. If you play that up into the workplace with actual stakes of, you know, my -- they -- they didn't call on me for this meeting, or they invited someone else instead of me. And you don't know why they did that. It can totally screw you up. And so I think, it's just as much for the boss in making sure that you're explaining decisions that you make, as it is for the employee. If you have doubts, you talked about when you start out at a new job, say that you don't understand something. Say that you don't know how to do something. No one's gonna hate you, and no one can look down on -- no one can ever hold it against you if you raise your hand and say, you know, what, I still don't understand this. Can we get some extra time to talk about it? And that's a lot better than faking it, not doing a good job, and then people going like, whoa, that Allison, you know, she's not that good at the Open-to-Buy meetings. And it's like, well, that's not fair.

 

ALLISON: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So that's the bonus section for the day. I just wanna encourage everyone, be honest, let's just be real.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: We're gonna move on to the Ask Mr. Corpo section. Now, Allison, you're a special guest, I wanna give you first right of refusal, if you wanna ask me something, or we'll go to the questions.

 

ALLISON: Oh, actually I -- I just thought of a question.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

ALLISON: Have you ever received leadership or management training? Because I think maybe it was the case with me, and I think the case with others, we interpret interactions with our superiors, with our managers, as intentional. Where I think that my boss might not really know how to handle that either.

 

JUSTIN: No managers get any advice or any training, especially when they start out.

 

ALLISON: Right. And it's a -- and it's a startup, too. So like, there -- no one really has managers or any kind of training.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, forget it. There -- there -- and the problem is, everyone thinks they're smarter than they are. And it's like, often times what happens is, you're good at your job. So they promote you. And then guess what? You're promoted. Nothing has changed. No one's handed you a manual. No one's told you how do you interview people. No one said, what ha -- what do you do if your employee asks you for a raise? What do you do about X, Y, and Z. There is no manuals, and so actually I didn't plant this question, but I'm writing my new book, which is called How To Be A Boss.

 

ALLISON: There we go.

 

JUSTIN: And it's exactly that, which is to say, from soup to nuts, this is what it takes to be a good boss. And you know, there's a people side to that. There's a process side to that. But I think it just goes -- it's so crazy, it's like handing you the keys to the Ferrari and being like, good luck. And it's really unfair. Now, to be specific, to answer your question, I did get a management training once I -- I think I was a vice president.

 

ALLISON: Uh huh.

 

JUSTIN: And basically, I was super high flyer, I'm just like yeah, everything's going fast, I'm super smart, I'm gonna like do a really good job. And it turned out I was not that good of a boss. And I think the company kind of realized it to say, the guy's smart, but he doesn't have the first clue how to be a boss. They sent me to a three-day training down in San Diego. It was life-altering. Um, and so that was one of my experiences. It was the first time where you sit and talk about the interaction of employee and boss. And so I learned a lot from that. And then maybe it was a year 30:01 later, I had an absolutely horrible interaction with an employee, I was trying to fire her, the company didn't want to fire her, it was just kinda went around in a circle, and basically they came back and said, you need an executive coach. And executive coaches are totally different than managerial coaches. Cause executive coaches, it's one-on-one. And they basically just psychoanalyze you. And then they're there. And I remember this coach would teach me -- she said I wasn't a good listener and it was about body language, and did -- was I paying enough attention? And she told me to always picture that myself and the person I'm talking to were in a bubble together. So if we're at work, if you're talking to me, I have to imagine we're in a bubble together, and only you and I exist in this conversation.

 

ALLISON: Isn't that the best feeling though, when you're talking to someone and they're treating you as if you are the only person in the room --

 

JUSTIN: Yes, oh my gosh.

 

ALLISON: Even those there's a million other people in there, right?

 

JUSTIN: Eye contact...not interrupting anyone. Like I'm doing now. If you think I'm bad now, I used to be even worse. This is the best version of me. But absolutely. I mean, being a great listener, I think it's something, actually, that I've gotten a lot better at, and -- and you just appreciate in people. I do wanna follow up on one other angle on the Ask Mr. Corpo, which is: last week on the show, I gave advice whether you should send thank you notes or thank you emails after you interview at a company or not. I told everyone unequivocally, under no circumstances, do not send a thank you note. And I feel 100 percent confident on this, but the feedback has been overwhelming. People are shocked.

 

ALLISON: That's what I thought.

 

JUSTIN: People are surprised. And they don't believe me. And the truth is, I want everyone to know, I have credibility on this topic. In fact, I started a -- a online startup tech company with the express purpose of sending thank you notes. That's what we did as a company. We sent handwritten thank you notes to other people. So I am a proponent of good manners. My mom always says, when you go eat dinner at someone's house, I do send a postcard thank you. I'm always writing to people. I do believe in the written word. I do believe in good manners. But I wanna go back to what I said in the episode. And remember, if you read my book, How To Write An Email, you don't wanna waste people's time with email. You want it to be effective. So Allison, let me tell you. If I've just interviewed you and you send me an email that says, "Justin, thank you for interviewing me. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah," what am I supposed to do with that? Like, I don't -- there's nothing good I can reply with.

 

ALLISON: But I'm not expecting a response.

 

JUSTIN: Really, you're not?

 

ALLISON: Yeah, no. When you send a thank you note in the mail for a gift that your aunt gave you, you're not expecting her to be like, "Thank you for your thank you note."

 

JUSTIN: Well, actually I kinda am.

 

ALLISON: Oh.

 

JUSTIN: When I send thank you notes, I like people to kind of acknowledge me and be like, either snap a picture of it --

 

ALLISON: Well, now you're just looking for affirmation.

 

JUSTIN: Snap a picture of it or to call me and say, "Hey Justin, thanks for the thank you note." Is that too much?

 

ALLISON: Why -- that begs the question, why are you sending thank you notes, then, Justin?

 

JUSTIN: Because I want to acknowledge their effort. And then I would like them to acknowledge my effort. Is that wrong?

 

ALLISON: Thank you for the thank you note to the thank you note.

 

JUSTIN: It's just like, you know, common courtesy I thought. But -- but the point is, I get this email, and it says Justin thank you for interviewing me. And like I said last week, I don't know what to do with that. You've put me in an awkward position and now I think less of you. Cause it's awkward.

 

ALLISON: Well, okay. Here's my question. Like, everyone's different, right? To me there's a greater risk of not thanking someone who loves to be thanked than thanking someone who doesn't really like being thanked.

 

JUSTIN: Wow, that is well said, Allison. And I'm still gonna say I like my idea better than yours, but I'm not gonna say you're wrong. But -- but the truth is, we have hundreds or thousands of interactions with other human beings every day, and we don't write a thank you note for every single interaction with them. If someone does something, if you run into someone and you say, hey, thanks for talking to me at the bus stop today, there's a million things that we do that don't, in the social norms, command that you need to send an email or say a thank you. And my argument would be, and you've actually challenged me to -- to rethink this a little bit, I'm gonna ask some other people in my work life and I'll come back one more time to talk about this, but --

 

ALLISON: This is a contentious topic.

 

JUSTIN: Do other people expect thank you notes or not? For me, it -- it could not be more clear that it's creating awkwardness. But you've challenged me, so I accept the challenge.

 

ALLISON: Well, here's another interesting question. At what point did the social norms around this change, right? Cause you read like any book about this, it's like, you follow up with a thank you.

 

JUSTIN: You read books about sending thank you notes after an interview? What kind of books are these? You're so boring.

 

ALLISON: Don't start snoring on me. Um, no but like the com -- the common --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, you're talking to your grandpa too much, maybe. That's what it --

 

ALLISON: Retake, retake. The common...(laughs)...see, what you guys don't know out there is that they gave me free beer. So I'm having a little bit of trouble.

 

JUSTIN: 35:02 That's right. Actually, Allison, you bring me to my next point...um, which is all the listeners out there, you may have noticed that the episode sounds different. Maybe the sound quality is a little bit crisper? Listen when I clap. (claps) There's no echo! Guess what? We've worked out a deal with this incredible company called Neuehouse. It's a shared --

 

ALLISON: Oh, I thought it was Neuehouse.

 

JUSTIN: Is it Neuehouse? They haven't told me. I say Noy-house. Okay. Noy-house or Neuehouse --

 

ROB: Hey, just give me one solid, like, Neue and Noy. And then I'll research it.

 

JUSTIN: Well, no actually, this is part of the episode, is us just talking through it but you seem to be insistent upon being the interruption monster today. So whether it's Noy-house or Neuehouse, it's spelled N-E-U-E. I would say, "noy". We are recording in their sound booth. And it's an incredible place where creative entrepreneurs come to work. In fact, I have an actual script that they've instructed me to read. So now, let me read it. We are here at Neuehouse, and Neuehouse is a private workspace and cultural center for creative entrepreneurs in film, design, fashion branding, architecture, and the arts. It's actually an incredible space. I liken it to the Rolls Royce of working environments. And so the reason we got on this topic is because they gave us some free beer to make the episode go faster, or smoother, or whatever the case may be. So thank you to Neuehouse, or --

 

ALLISON: Neuehouse was my read of it.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Either way, uh, we'll get it right next time. So enjoy this echo-proof chamber, chamber, chamber. Alright, Rob's giving me the evil eye. We'll, uh, we'll take off from here. Hit me on the social channels. I'm at Instagram at JDKJDKJDKJDK. I'm on Twitter at Mr_Corpo. Or as always, send me an email for your anonymous questions that I'll answer on the show. That's mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. And actually, before we go, Allison, where can people find you on the social networks?

 

ALLISON: Sure. So um, my Twitter is AlBTweetin. That's A-L-B-T-W-E-E-T-I-N. Instagram, ALB1919. And if you wanna listen to The Intern, you can go to iTunes, Overcast. Or if you listen to SoundCloud, wherever you listen to podcasts, and find it there. The Intern.

 

JUSTIN: And also we didn't ask you, what's next. You've moved on from The Intern, you've got riches and famous from that, what's next?

 

ALLISON: I'm working on a new show.

 

JUSTIN: Really? Is this breaking news?

 

ALLISON: Um, no. It will be soon, when it's ready. I mean, when it's ready, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Well, yeah, so it's breaking news that you're working on it.

 

ALLISON: Yeah, I guess so.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright cool. What do we have to expect from it? Is it gonna be work based, like your adventures of Allison based?

 

ALLISON: No, no. It's um...

 

JUSTIN: Fireside with your grandpa, what is it?

 

ALLISON: That would be good.

 

JUSTIN: He had a great radio voice, by the way.

 

ALLISON: So good.

 

JUSTIN: Great radio voice.

 

ALLISON: So, oh my gosh, he hammed it up so much, too.

 

JUSTIN: Well, we look forward to catching whatever you do next, you did a great job with The Intern, I hope everybody goes and checks that out. It's a great listen, eight episodes, it goes quickly, and you learn a lot about work and -- and what's happening out there in New York City in this tech startup, you know, entrepreneurial, VC world. It's very white. It's very male. And it's very boring. But Allison makes it amazing. Alright, and Rob, thanks for another great episode. See you next week.

 

(music)

 

39:07

Scared to ask for a raise? Don't be. Asking for a raise is a lot like getting ready to have sex. In this episode, MR CORPO breaks down the step by step process - and the exact words to use - in order to non-threateningly-but-secretly-threateningly ask for a raise. In our BONUS SECTION, we talk about why the boss should always buy coffee for their employees - even if it is a flat white at Starbucks that costs $4.90?! Plus, MR CORPO answers a question from an anonymous listener (Lindsay) about whether or not you should send thank you notes after you interview for a new job. His answer may surprise you.

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How To Ask For A Raise (11/9/2016)

JUSTIN: Money, get away. Get a good job with more pay and you're okay. Money, it's a gas. Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash. Money, let's talk about it.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Money, we all want more of it, but we don't know how to get it. So let's talk about how to ask for a raise. Now, before we get started, I wanna make something crystal clear. Asking for a raise is different than getting a promotion. These are totally different things. So if you're angling for a promotion, go back and listen to the first episode of Mr. Corpo podcast. I explain exactly how to get a promotion and I guarantee it. But in the case that we're not talking about a promotion, we're talking about how to get a raise. And more specifically, how to ask for a raise. Two of my friends have asked me for the best approach for how to ask for a raise in the last couple weeks. So I figure there's something in the air.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Now, I do want to admit right away: I'm operating on the assumption that you have listened to my podcast before, or you have read my book. I'm assuming you already have a weekly one-to-one touch base with your boss. And the key point is, you don't need a separate time to ask for a raise. Use your weekly one-on-one touch base with your boss to ask for the raise. Now, if you don't have a one-to-one meeting every week with your boss, please allow me to recommend three things. First, please allow me to call you an idiot. You're an idiot. Second, go buy my book. Third, get your work life in order. You cannot succeed at work if you do not have a one-on-one meeting with your boss every single week. Period, end of sentence, I refuse to listen to any arguments.

 

Okay, I'm getting off track. But the point is, you need a one-to-one weekly meeting with your boss. So, okay. Let's say you're at your one-to-one weekly meeting with your boss. Now what? This is your chance to ask for a raise. Now, here's exactly what I want you to do: I want you to say, "Hey, one more thing. I wanted to get your advice on something." Notice I told you to use the word advice. I like to say the word advice is a magic word. It has so many different meanings in this context, and let me just go through a few of them with you. It says, I respect you. Your boss is gonna love to hear that. Second, it's gonna say, you can help me. You're literally telling your boss, you can help me. People always like to help each other. So just using this word advice puts them in a position to feel like, oh, great, I can't wait to help you. The third thing you're doing: you're acknowledging to your boss the hierarchy of the relationship. You're literally saying to them, "I acknowledge you're at a higher level than I am, I'm looking for you to give me wisdom that you have, and to help me out." The other thing you're doing when you use the word advice is you're also putting pressure on your boss. This is really important. Remember how I said people love to help other people? Remember how I said you can say to your boss, you can help me? That also puts a little bit of pressure on them to say, this person has expectations, I'm going to help them, so now they're more engaged in the conversation.

 

So you've just said, "Hey, one more thing. I wanted to get your advice on something." The next thing I want you to say, and this is exactly down to the word, I want you to say, "I wanted to talk about the possibility of asking for a raise." Now, notice what we've done there. That's a soft sell. That's non-threatening, it's a conversation. I wanted to ask about the possibility of asking for a raise. There's no threat involved in that. This has been your setup. This is getting the mood right. This is like lighting the candles at night, this is like putting fresh sheets on the bed when you wanna have sex. You want everyone involved to feel safe, to feel happy, to feel comfortable, to be in the mood. So I guess in some ways I've just likened asking for a raise to some of the crazy steps people will take to signal to their partner, I'm in the mood to make the magic happen. You wanna make your boss feel comfortable. Notice you're not even asking for the raise. You're asking if it's okay to talk about the possibility of even asking for a raise. 05:01 This is so non-threatening that no matter who your boss is, they have to accept this as just a conversation.

 

Now, here's the key point: you have one sentence to make your case. Maybe it's not one sentence, but it's one point. Now, listen carefully. Here's what I want you to say: "I'm really happy. I'm working really hard. I feel like the results have been great. And I was just hoping to check in and see where I'm at with compensation." That's it. Don't keep talking. Don't list your accomplishments. Don't talk about other people. Don't nervously blabber, blabber, blabber, I'm not sure if I should be doing this, blah blah blah blah blah. That's it. Again, I'm gonna say it: "I'm really happy." I want you to say that sentence because I want you, again, to make them feel good and not feel threatened. The second part was: "I'm working really hard." So, again, no one's gonna complain about anyone working hard. This isn't about money. Notice I'm not talking about money, I'm not comparing salaries, I'm not throwing numbers on the table. All I've said is, "I'm happy and I'm working really hard." I also have acknowledged, just to remind them, that the results have been great.

 

Now, the reason I feel confident to give you that advice is, if the business results aren't great, you shouldn't be asking for a raise. It's as simple as that. And then this last part is the key point: "I was just hoping to check in and see where I'm at with compensation." There's nothing about that that's threatening, and it gives your boss an easy way to take the question you're asking and go do some research and figure out what is going on with your compensation?

 

So you've framed the question and now you've put the pressure on your boss. you weren't threatening, but you have put the pressure on your boss to come back to you and tell you what is going on with your compensation. So they literally have to come back and either say, I'm awesome, I'm giving you a raise, or they have to come back to you and say, I suck, I can't get you a raise. So either way, you've put the pressure on them. Notice you didn't say a lot. In other situations, if it's a promotion or something else, I'd like you to have a big, long list. It's your job to get the promotion. When it comes to raises, it's your boss's job. It just takes a nudge and then they're gotta go do the work.

 

So here's what's gonna happen next. If you have a young boss or a new boss, they have no clue what to do. They're gonna be like a deer in headlights, they're not gonna know what to say in the moment. They're just gonna fumble around, they'll just say, "Uh, okay, uh, I don't know, uh, uh, I don't know, let me just figure something out." Now, if you have an old boss, which I mean, an experienced boss, they're gonna say, "Okay. Thanks for bringing this up. Let me talk to HR and I'll get back to you."

 

Now, there's one other thing that could happen, and I want you to be prepared for this question. They may ask you, "Why are you asking? What brought this to mind?" Now, my advice to you is, keep it simple. The less you say, the better. Here's what I recommend you say: "Oh, I just wanted to check in." That's it. Do not say more words. Keep it simple. The more you talk, the less pressure is on your boss and the more the pressure's on you to justify it. So don't get into a situation where you feel like you have to justify the raise. Keep it simple and just say, "Oh, just wanted to check in. You know, I feel like it's healthy to have these conversations every now and then." Even that extra part I just said, I probably wish I wouldn't have said it. But maybe that's just my natural speaking pattern. So you do you, but just keep it really simple. Alright?

 

Congratulations. Your work is done. Now, one of three things is gonna happen. One, you're gonna get a raise. Two, you're not gonna get a raise, but you're gonna get it in the next review, and you're probably gonna get a bigger raise than you would have gotten if you hadn't asked for the raise earlier. Or the third thing is, you're gonna get a promotion and a raise. Cause here's what happens. Your boss goes to HR, HR checks the salary scale. Yes, there is such a thing as a salary scale. They will pull up your name, they'll pull up your title and then within that title there's usually a low, a middle, and a high. So this scale just says, which bucket within the title are they at? Now, often what happens is, if you've been at a company for a long time, you end up at the low end of the scale, within your job title. Because like it or not, when you change jobs, you get raises. And you get paid more money, and people stretch a little bit to get you to come join them. But if you've been at a company for a long time, sometimes you don't get as big of a raise, you don't get as big of bumps as often as you might like. So that's another reason why it's great to ask for a raise and a check in. 10:00 But HR's gonna check where you are within the scale.

 

Now, there's a couple things that come out of this. One, HR's gonna see, hey, you're low in the -- in the band, within that title, so we're gonna move you up from low to middle, or from middle to high. The second thing that might happen is, they might have to promote you to get you more money. So even though all you've asked for is a raise, if they take it seriously, if they're worried that this conversation might lead to you leaving, they may say, we can't give them a raise because they're already at the top of this band. If you want to give them a raise, we'd have to give them a promotion. And guess what? All of a sudden, HR, your boss, and your boss's boss are talking about the possibility of you having a promotion. This is a great thing.

 

Now, the third thing that might happen is, they might say, we just gave you a promotion, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Basically, they're saying they're not giving you more money. But the point is, you've gotten their attention. Either way, you win. You're on the radar, they know you're watching, they know they can't take you for granted. You've scared them. You've scared them in the most non-threatening way. They can't be mad at you. You haven't bulldozed your way in there. You haven't made false threats. You've kindly asked them, "Hey, can you let me know where I am on the compensation scale?" That's it. That's harmless. There's only benefits for you from having this conversation. Now, go out there and ask for a raise.

 

I think I just made a lot of people a lot of money. And I gotta say, it feels good to stick it to corporate America. So if we can take more money from them, that's a good thing. Now, let me move on to the awesome sponsor, Forlorn Hope Wines.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: How many of you like craft beer? I hate craft beer. It makes my stomach feel bloated, it gives me farts. I call it fart juice. In fact, I like water beer. It goes down easy, I can drink a lot of it. It makes me feel good about myself. But the reason I'm talking about craft beer when our sponsor is Forlorn Hope is, if you're someone who doesn't like wine, if you hate drinking buttery chardonnay, if you think all wine tastes the same, it's either red or white, guess what? Forlorn Hope Wines are different. I would say they're the craft beer of the wine industry. They're interesting, they're funky, they're cool, they're probably made by a guy with a lot of tattoos. In this case, we know that the founder and winemaker, matt Rorick, has sleeves of tattoos, including a Misfits tattoo. So my point is, even if you don't like wine, I want you to understand Forlorn Hope Wines are unlike anything you've ever tried. And the thing is, if you do like wines, then I don't have to sell you, cause you're gonna appreciate that this is cool, funky stuff. Go to forlornhopewines.com, use the Mr. Corpo discount, M-R-C-O-R-P-O, and you're gonna get 15 dollars off, or 15 percent off, I can't even remember which, when you place your order. So, forlornhopewines.com, that's all I have to say.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Now, here's the thing. I'm imagining if you listen to this podcast so far, and you're a boss, you're probably pretty upset at me. Because now you're thinking, oh my gosh, every single person on my team listens to the Mr. Corpo podcast, so now every single person on my team's gonna come into my office and ask for a raise. Well, don't be mad at me, cause I'm about to offer you the bonus section, and that's gonna get you through your dark days. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! I love you! Bonus section.

 

Alright, here we are on the Mr. Corpo podcast, we're in the super secret bonus section. And I've just talked about how to get a raise. But if you're a boss, there are certain things you can do to pre-empt people asking for a raise. And it's super simple: buy your employees a coffee. When you go to lunch, buy their lunch. When you go out for drinks, buy the first round of drinks. Sure, it's gonna cost you a little bit. It's gonna cost you four dollars when you go here for a coffee. It's gonna cost you 12 dollars when you go to lunch. Think of it as an investment. Because if your employees are so happy that you've bought a coffee -- it only cost you four dollars but you've made them happy -- they're gonna work hard for you and they're gonna have no time to ask for a raise. So you always wanna stay ahead of the power curve. 15:00 You always wanna be doing little things that gesture to them, they're more to you than just a number. You care so much, you're willing to pay 4.95 for a flat white at Starbucks. Okay? Never miss a chance to buy someone a coffee or a lunch. That is my advice and I promise if you do that, you will negate 50 to 75 percent of the time that people ask for raises.

 

Because after all, most people are afraid to ask for raises. Now, if they listen to my podcast, they're probably not afraid anymore, so you're in a little bit of trouble. But I've done my part to help you alleviate it as much as possible. So that's my bonus section for today.

 

This brings us to our last segment of the show, and this is called Ask Mr. Corpo. Now, as you know, you can always hit us on the social channels. We're at Instagram at JDKJDKJDKJDK. We're on Twitter at Mr_Corpo. And we also have anonymous hot tip line where you can hit us on email at mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. Now, the power of the email is, it allows you to ask questions anonymously so your co-workers can't see on the social channels, they're asking me for advice on how to deal with someone who really annoys you at work, or whatever your question is. So I highly recommend you use the email, mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com.

 

This particular question comes from someone who we will call Lindsey. That may or may not be her real name, we're new at this whole anonymous thing. Lindsey explained to me that she's been interviewing at a lot of jobs lately, and interviewing with a lot of different people within the same organizations. And her question is very simple, which is: should I send thank you notes? When should I sent thank you notes? Should I send thank you emails? What should they say? And why does no one ever reply to me in these?

 

So I wanna make this so simple for all the listeners. And I have, myself, interviewed for jobs. I have interviewed hundreds -- literally hundreds of candidates. And I will say this very simply and very cleanly: do not send thank you notes. Do not send thank you emails. No one expects you to do that. It's actually annoying to me when I get them, because I have my daily work to get through as a boss. I'm trying to do my work. There's a small portion of my life that is committed to interviewing for this open position. But unless I'm interviewing or in a meeting talking about the candidates, I just wanna get on my with daily tasks. And guess what? If we just interviewed, I haven't decided if you're gonna get hired or not. And as a boss and as an interviewer, I have no idea how to reply to this email. I have no idea what to do. So don't put me in the awkward position of having to reply to your email or choose not to reply to your email. All you've done is actually upset me.

 

So this is very simple for the interviewer and the person who is being interviewed. Do not say thank you. Do not send an email. Do not send a letter -- I find a letter completely awkward, because it goes to the inter-office mail, who knows when it's gonna get there? What stamp do you use? Now I can see your handwriting. There's a million things that can go wrong with a letter. And an email makes it incredibly awkward because I can't reply to you. Maybe I've rejected your candidacy. I don't wanna continue this as a relationship. I want HR to handle it. And if I do like you, I don't wanna reply cause I don't wanna give the game away. So there's nothing good that can come from this. I've never received an email from a candidate and thought, wow, that was so thoughtful of them.

 

Now, I've made that super simple, but I'm gonna complicate things here at the end. I'm gonna say one point, one reason that you write an email to someone. If you were in the interview and there was an answer that you gave that you weren't happy with, or there was a question you couldn't answer, I think it's perfectly appropriate to follow up by an email and to say, "You know, I really wasn't satisfied with my answer to this question. I'd love to share this quick thought with you." And then have it be razor sharp and really quick in and out. That's an appropriate reason to follow up with someone who has interviewed you. An inappropriate reason to follow up with someone is to say, "Thank you for interviewing me." And then turning it into a social awkward experience.

 

Alright, so that's my advice on Ask Mr. Corpo. Lindsey, good luck with everything out there. And that does it for today's Mr. Corpo episode. Of course, I wanna thank our producer Rob Schulte, shoutout Rob.

 

ROB: Hello.

 

JUSTIN: That was Rob's voice that you just heard there. And otherwise, thanks to all the listeners. Hit me up on the social channels. Spread the word. Buy my book, How To Write An Email. It's on amazon.com. It's also at the publisher Extracurricular Press. It's also at mrcorpo.com. And don't forget to invite me to come speak at your office, speak to your co-workers, whatever you want. But onwards and upwards. Let's get to work.

 

20:06

 

Interviewing is easy - if you are the applicant. Interviewing is hard - if you are the hiring manager. We bring Keith George on to the MR CORPO podcast to talk about helpful tips and tricks on how to run an interview. Keith is a high-powered executive from Gilt.com, Old Navy, a generic famous consulting firm, and Coca-Cola. He is also a former part-time male model and he is the world's best interviewer. We discuss whether having a resume longer  than 1 page is an automatic disqualifier - it is - and we also break down the interview process from the moment you walk into the room until the applicant starts crying. Mr Corpo and Keith talk about how they fell in love in the workplace. 

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

How To Interview (10/26/2016)

JUSTIN: Alright, welcome to the Mr. Corpo podcast. Interviews are easy. Yes, I said it. It's easy to interview for a job. You're basically being given all the answers in the job description. You know everything that you need to say, you have unlimited time to prepare for an interview. There is no reason that you should not ace an interview as a potential hire. 

Now, for the same reasons, interviewing people is really, really hard. You have basically 30 minutes to decide whether this person's gonna join your team, if they're lying to you or not, if they're good at their job or not. It's a really, really hard deal. So I've brought on Keith George to the Mr. Corpo show today. He's basically the world's best interviewer. He's one of my top three people I've ever worked with in my entire life. I'm not even sure who the other two are. He's also been a senior executive at Gilt, Old Navy, Coca Cola or Pepsi or one of those, throw in a consulting firm, Accenture or something like that I'm not sure, PricewaterhouseCooper sounds about right. Um, I've already talked about him being an amazing interviewer. 

He's also -- I should note this -- he's a part-time male model. Not a full time male model, part-time male model. And you're not gonna see him in GQ magazine, you're not gonna see him in the J. Crew ads. You're probably gonna see him in the Departures magazine, maybe Hemispheres on the Delta flight between Cincinnati and uh, Toledo. But he's gonna be in there. And he's not gonna be doing an ad for a big brand. It's kind of like an off-brand wine company. He's probably standing in the field, the wind is blowing in his hair. He's that kind of male model. So, if you get an idea of, kind of, I know you can't see him on the podcast, but that's what you look like. So, anyway, I'm excited to have Keith on the show -- 

KEITH: Thanks for having me. I've done everything I can to resist fighting back on those -- on that description. But uh, I'll take it. 

JUSTIN: Nothing but truth right there. Not everyone can be a male model, whether you're part-time or full-time, take pride in that work. Do you get paid to be a male model?

KEITH: This is such bullshit by the way, cause I wasn't even a fucking male model. 

JUSTIN: Part-time male model! 

KEITH: That was a long time ago. 

JUSTIN: Okay, yeah, so -- 

KEITH: Alright. 

JUSTIN: See? It all counts. Alright. 

(music)

JUSTIN: So, Keith, you heard me frame up this debate. What if you're the person who's hiring somebody? How many people do you think you've hired in your career?

KEITH: Well, I've absolutely interviewed well over 500 people. I probably hired in um, 50 range, probably.

JUSTIN: Okay. 

KEITH: Um, at least through me or on my direct teams, and then probably many more outside of that through indirect teams. 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay. Give me a number, how many of those do you think were good hires? Like you were happy with that hire, it worked out. 

KEITH: Probably about 85 percent of them. 90 percent. 

JUSTIN: That's an amazing hit ratio. I would say I've probably hired around 50 people. I would give myself credit for saying 30 to 35 of them were good. And I can think off the head right now ten people that I wish I'd never hired. And the thing is, once you hire 'em, it's hard to get rid of 'em. 

KEITH: Right. 

JUSTIN: So this is a critical moment in any manager's life. 

KEITH: I always say, it's easier not to hire than to fire. I think the biggest mistake people tend to make is, they take one approach to every interview. They come in, like you said, they say, "Tell me about yourself." And they waste all this time on -- on you know, kind of getting to know the candidate in a certain way without actually thinking about what they really need. And so I like to look at an interview, a little bit about like, staffing a baseball team, right? I don't want nine home run hitters. I don't need nine shortstops, I don't need nine pitchers. What I need is a balanced team. And so every interview really is not just looking at that job and what you need, but it's actually looking at the composition of the team that you've got. Because I may have a need for a certain skill set, but at the same time, I may need a certain skill set plus somebody who's more extroverted. Or maybe somebody who's a little bit more thoughtful, because you don't need to have, you know, your entire team made up of the same folks. What really works is when you have that mix of both skills and background and approaches to life. 

JUSTIN: Alright, so I think that sounds like a good perspective on being a boss and building out your team, but make that real for me. Does that mean you're going into an interview, and being like, hey, I need an extrovert, and you're gonna interview this person, and whether they're an extrovert or not depends on whether they get hired or not?

KEITH: No, what I'm saying is that I go into each interview thinking about: what is it specifically in this instance at this time that I need? And -- and then try to build around that. Now, I will -- will always say that I'm open to people who -- what I will call, almost, athletes. People who can do a lot of different things. And I'm not ever gonna go into an interview being like, I'm looking for 05:04 someone who is an introvert who has these skills, etcetera. Yes, this may apply more towards management, but you're managing the team that you hired. So if you don't hire the right team, then your management style is gonna be in trouble. 

JUSTIN: I mean, you're kinda blowing me away right at the beginning here, because I feel like when most people go into an interview, when I go into an interview, I'm just looking for someone who's smart, who I think I wanna hang out with, or work with, who I think has some properties or some abilities that might mix well with my team. But you're saying hey, I'm going into this thinking, does this person fit into my team? That's a totally different approach. 

KEITH: Yeah, fit into my team, to -- fit into the company, fit into what we need. Everybody loves to have people around that they wanna go get a beer with, but at the end of the day, we have a job to do. You have to mix it up in the right way or you're not gonna achieve what you want. GroupThink is when everybody has -- comes from the same place and will -- has the same perspective and goes the same way. How do you combat that? You bring in different perspectives. You bring in different points of view. And so of course, diversity is this buzzword. But it actually is meaningful in the workplace. 

JUSTIN: Okay. Let me get down to it. You've got 30 minutes, you walk into a room cold, maybe you've been handed a resume. Walk me through what you do before you walk into the room for the interview. 

KEITH: I look at the resume to say, I wanna see what is the story that that resume is telling? I always -- I like to say that -- that a person's resume, it's -- it's a ladder. It's one experience ladders up to the next experience, ladders up to the other experience. How did those things connect or not connect, and how is that relevant to the job that I'm trying to hire for?

JUSTIN: What are you looking at in the resume to get you into what questions you wanna ask them?

KEITH: I go back to what I call the ladder. The ladder is, your experiences that are built on each other. Is there consistency in there? Is there -- is there a r -- is there, you know, a method to how you've gone about your jobs? Did you -- if it's an entry-level job, did you spend your one summer working in a dental office? One summer being a lifeguard? One summer being a server in a restaurant? Or did you actually, early on, know what you wanna pursue and -- and go after that? Now, I'm not trying to say that everybody needs to know exactly what they wanna do, but I wanna understand where are the links in the chain. And then, what are the skills that you learn? Because let's say you're hiring for an entry-level person. Sometimes, someone may have been a server, which is great, because what did they have to do? They gotta -- had to learn customer service, they had to learn, you know, efficiency. They had to learn to work well with others. All those things are the things that I'm looking for, but at the end of the day it is a -- it's the ladder, to me. What is the story and how do these things link together on a resume, and then how can I ask you about that and understand how it's built. 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay. Do you have any things that are immediately like, this person is out? So for me, if I get a resume and it's more than one page, I am 99 percent sure I don't wanna hire this person. I'm not saying that's like perfect, I'm just saying, oh my gosh, you can't get all your stuff organized and efficiently put it in one page. So that's like a breaker for me. But what about you? 

KEITH: I -- I think a -- early on in your career, more than one page is just absolutely unnecessary. And even after that, at some point in your career, you don't even need a resume. 

JUSTIN: Right, you don't have to say anything. 

KEITH: You don't have to say anything. It just is. And so I -- I would tend to agree with you, being able to get everything on one page is important. I think the things that I look at immediately is, how long in position at -- at a specific company. I'm willing to -- to forgive any shorts stints if -- as long as there's a reason for that. You know, if there's a life change, or there was something -- there was something that they became passionate about. Those are -- those are kind of breakers for me. And then, the other thing -- again, going back to this -- is if there's just a, a general sense of confusion in what this resume is. Because again, straight out of college, everybody's resume is just, everyone's doing the best they can. But you get to a point in life where if you're jumping all over the place, it just seems confused. 

JUSTIN: Yeah. 

KEITH: And that's not -- and I'm not looking for that. 

JUSTIN: Well, to me, I don't even get mad at being confused. I get mad at, you're a job hopper. And I guess it's maybe the same, it's like -- 

KEITH: It's a little bit the same. 

JUSTIN: -- oh, gosh, like, figure it out, like stay somewhere for at least a little while. 

KEITH: Right...right. 

JUSTIN: Or people, maybe no one likes you. So -- so anyway, alright. So that's kinda before you walk in. Um, you walk into an interview, I'm talking about you the hiring manager, you walk into the interview, there's the interviewee sitting across the table, they've got two copies of the resume. What do you do? 

KEITH: So, the first thing I do when I come in is I look for people who will look me in the eye, give me a firm handshake, and stand up. Those are -- 

JUSTIN: Stand up!

KEITH: Critical. Because --

JUSTIN: Really?

KEITH: -- frankly, that's what I do when I meet anyone. And if -- and I expect when it -- when it's a business partner, it's not about they -- it, giving me any sort of respect. It's not about that at all. It's just common human courtesy. 

JUSTIN: Okay. 

KEITH: Then, my first question, which I have to admit, kinda goes with maybe some of the questions you have, but with a little bit of a twist on it, is, I always ask people, before you had to pay the rent, let's talk about when you were a kid. You're ten years old. What'd you do? What I care about in that, with that answer is: I don't care what you did, I'm looking for clues. Because people -- some people were really 10:06 into team sports. Some people were really into music. Some people loved art. When you're ten, you're not caring about prestige. You don't care about money in that way. You're just you. And so what I wanna get out in that first question is: who is this person deep inside? And when you ask a question about people when they're -- when they're really young, they can answer in a way that's more free than when they're old. You know, here I am saying my theme song would be I Need A Dollar by Aloe Black. That is not how I was at ten years old. You know, all I cared about was team sports and this and that. And so I wanna understand that -- that core behavior before I get anywhere else. 

JUSTIN: So, this is shocking to me and I -- I'm learning a lot. Because right out of the gate, you're not even asking them about the work. They're -- they've prepared -- they're doing -- they're there, they're ready to do everything. And you kind of almost throw them off right at the beginning, cause you don't expect someone to walk in and say, "Tell me about your childhood." 

KEITH: Right. 

JUSTIN: I mean, I actually like that. Because I usually ask about work, ask about work, ask about work. And then, oh, crap, this interview was scheduled for 40 minutes, I gotta fill time. Oh, what was your childhood like? Or, what do you do for fun? I ask it at the end. So you're saying right at the beginning, get to know them, in a different way. 

KEITH: And I say that with that twist on, you know, before you had to pay the rent, before you cared about what your friends thought, because now, if I -- if you ask somebody even at the beginning of the interview, you know, some warm up question, "Tell me about yourself, you know, what do you like to do for fun?" They're already in their mind thinking, okay, well how do I spin this, right? Like, I'm a triathlete and I do this and what that's sending a message that's I'm disciplined and all those things. And that's not what I'm looking for. What I wanna understand is like, you know, and they're -- and again, there's no right or wrong answer. Cause there're people who are like, I was really into music. I love the piano, I practiced. And then I'm thinking to myself, okay, this is somebody who's really thoughtful, who love -- you know, practiced something that was really difficult and they showed perseverance with that. Those are the -- or someone's really into team sports. And so then I start thinking about how do they engage with others. 

JUSTIN: Do they get caught off guard or are they quiet for a while, they go, I wasn't expecting that? What -- what's the reaction to that?

KEITH: They do get caught off guard. But then, when they say something, my next question is always, something around that subject. And so it does -- it has a way of warming up the interview in a way that is not, "Tell me about yourself" and all those things. Cause in a way, I don't feel like that warms up the interview because they're expecting that question and so then they go into some rote answer. 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you've warmed them up. Where do you go from there? Like, what -- do you have a set of questions -- you have three questions you've always asked? Or one question that's your key question? What do you do from there?

KEITH: I don't have a set question. It goes back to this, this approach on trying to fill my baseball team in the right way. I know generally what I'm looking for before I go into the interview. And I'm looking for people do to maybe one of three things. Either be that person, not be that person, and it's not -- we're not gonna go forward, or not be that person but introduce something that I'm really intrigued by. And I like to think of an interview not as for a specific job, but I like to think of an interview as, you're here thinking about a specific job, but I'm here thinking about you as a potential fit for my entire company, for my entire career. And I don't care so -- of course I care about filling that position at that time, because you know, having an open seat is a -- is a challenge. But what I do wanna say is, I would rather hire somebody into the right job then hire somebody into the wrong job just to fill the job. So I'm always looking a little bit further out. 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay. This is something I struggle with, and I -- and is a fault of mine in interviews. I will ask someone a question and they will be struggling to answer it, and I will partially answer it myself. And so I kind of fill the space. That's like a horrible way to interview, cause I haven't really tested their metal. I haven't really seen what they're made of. What about you? Do you ask a question and can you sit there and stew in the silence and do you have any strategies around that?

KEITH: Well, let's be clear that everyone loves to hear themselves talk. 

JUSTIN: Right. 

KEITH: And so something that I tell people often times when they're going in to interview is: know this, the more the person interviewing you is talking, probably the better rating you're gonna get when you get out of there. It's just a fact. People like to hear themselves talk. Look at Justin. He loves to talk. And so -- 

JUSTIN: I just have such a big heart, I wanna, like, make it comfortable sometimes. 

KEITH: And so knowing -- yes, you do. But at the end of the day, you do them a disservice, because you're not letting them -- them express themselves. And like you said, they only have 30 minutes. Give them the floor. Let them talk. And understand that -- that you're not actually helping them if you fill in the sentences. 

JUSTIN: Yeah, alright. Let me -- let me ask you this: on another note, let's say you get into the interview, you're ten minutes in, the interview's scheduled for 30 minutes, do you ever just cut it off 15:00 after ten minutes and just say, "Hey, thanks for coming in." Like, what do you do? You're five minutes in -- or, how quickly do you know it's not gonna work, and then what's your exit strategy? 

KEITH: I don't think that it's fair to just cut off the interview and say okay, we're not gonna move forward here. Because again, they may not be the right person for that job, but they may be right for something else. And I think that that shows people respect by actually exploring that. However, I will say this: I used to work in a group that had a team on the other side that we had to work with that was very challenging to work with. And they were -- they could be very difficult at times. Justin was a member of this team. And they would be very hard on the people that were on my team. And so I had this interview philosophy that I would say, I'm gonna take these people to the wall and see if they can actually handle some things, because if they can't handle things in this interview, they're gonna get crushed by our cross-functional partners. And so -- 

JUSTIN: So, wait, wait, wait. I wanna dig on that. So, how did you take them to the wall? I mean, this is -- this is actually an insight. So I rarely -- I'm just asking questions, I'm interviewing. I think rarely do people try and take someone to the wall. How did you take them to the wall? How did you poke and prod and test them? 

KEITH: I did case study, where I would leave them with a case study. I would always do the same -- same case study. So I would have comparison points. I would leave the room, let them prepare for it, and I would come back and then --

JUSTIN: Shut up. 

KEITH: The better they were, the harder I grilled. And grilled, and grilled. And I had a saying at some point that said, "If you walk out of my interview thinking you're gonna get the job, you're probably not getting the job."

JUSTIN: Right, right. 

KEITH: "But if walk out thinking you're not, you probably are." Where I made a mistake was, one time -- well, I had a -- I had this philosophy that said, if I knew you aren't gonna make it, I actually would shift gears really quickly and back off -- 

JUSTIN: Right, yeah. You just wanna be nice. 

KEITH: I wanna be nice. I'm not trying to -- no reason to hurt anybody's feelings. And there is one situation where I misread, and I thought that this candidate really had it. And so I took the candidate to the wall and it didn't end well. I mean, the candidate --

JUSTIN: Tears. 

KEITH: -- ended in tears. And I'm not proud of that, and if definitely made me adjust my style. But what I will say is, for that period of time, when I was hiring people and they were in a job that had a little bit of a combatant feel to it, that people that I hired came in and they could take the heat, and when they took the heat, the people that they worked with respected them more. And so that's not something that I do now, because the types of work that I'm in now just doesn't have that type of relationship, but it was a little bit of thinking about, what is this person gonna experience on a day-to-day basis and how do I actually see what they're gonna act like in a real-time situation. 

JUSTIN: So, I think there's a couple things I wanna pick up on there. One is this idea you just mentioned: understanding what the job entails. What skills it's gonna require. In this case you said, you know, combatant business partners. So you wanna test their metal. I think that's a great insight. Not everyone thinks of: what does this job take to be successful and how do I draw out of this person and test them? Are they good or not? That's -- that's one point. The other point is: a case study? You literally -- do you something out? You bring it, you put in front of them? Or you talk to them? What -- I've never heard of people doing this. 

KEITH: Well, so, it's a classic business school exercise. Where I -- what I did different -- and so, where people will give a case study and they'll try to understand, and they'll be like, you know, how would you measure how many gallons of water are in the ocean? I don't like that. What I would do as a case study that is applicable to the business that we are in. And then to me it was less as much about what you would say, but then how you would respond in the situation. Because I would present certain things in a way that were a little tough. And so what I -- what I did was, I -- I learned how they were without asking you, "Hey, are you tough? Can you take the heat? Can -- how are you with a combatant business partner?" Because what's everyone gonna say? They're gonna say, I'm great at that. I'm really tough. Or, you know, something. So I wanted to see it in action. 

JUSTIN: Yeah, okay. Alright. I think I that's good. I have two questions that I really like to ask. And I wanna hear if you think these are good questions or bad questions to ask interview. I like to ask the question: what are you famous for? If I talked to your boss, if I talked to your co-workers, tell me about Keith, what would they all say? And then the other question I like to ask is: what's that one thing, I know Keith, you're great, you're good at your job, what's that one thing that all your bosses keep saying, Keith, you're great, but you gotta keep getting better at this. What's that thing you have to improve? What's your thought on those as questions?

KEITH: I love the first one. I don't like the second one. 

JUSTIN: Okay. 

KEITH: I love the first one because what you're doing is, you're actually creating a hero moment. And that hero allows them to stand up and say, "Here's what I am." And I don't care if it's, I'm the person who is the glue amongst my friends, and I keep everybody going -- 

JUSTIN: Right, right. 

KEITH: And I -- and it may not be anything related to a skill. What I don't like about the second question is that, 20:00 I've gotten the same answer 100 times. "That I work too hard." 

JUSTIN: Yeah, right, right. 

KEITH: That I -- that I -- that I take my work too seriously. I care too much. And it's just -- I just can't take listening to that. And I think that there's a point after all the interviews that I've -- that I've done where, if I know what you're gonna answer, you know, I'd -- let's just not even go there. Cause it's just wasting everybody's time. 

JUSTIN: Yeah. 

KEITH: There's a twist on what you said on that second question that I actually do think is interesting. Is, if you had all the time in the world, what is something that you would love to learn? Which is a little bit of twist on, what do your bosses tell you you need to develop, right? And you won't always get out of it the same thing as far as, okay, what are your developmentals? But it could be like, you know, I would love to be like the greatest leader in the world. And maybe that -- sensing that that's something they're kind of working on. 

JUSTIN: I would fall asleep if someone said that to me. That's too generic. I wanna be the greatest leader in the world. 

KEITH: Oh, fine! 

JUSTIN: I thought people were gonna say, "I always wish I was a beekeeper," or like, I'd love to be a bee -- do they take in work way, or do they take it in non-work way?

KEITH: You know, it's up to them. But I think -- well, listen. I -- to me, saying what is -- what is the one -- what is your one developmental is just opening up the "I work too hard" thing. 

JUSTIN: A generic -- yeah, okay. 

KEITH: I don't wanna hire somebody for a current job. I wanna be thinking that I'm hiring them for two, three jobs from now. 

JUSTIN: If you know an interview didn't go well, do you tell the person at the end of the interview, "Hey listen, I don't think this is gonna work out, but good luck," or do you just leave them wanting more and hopeful? Like, what -- how do you leave it?

KEITH: I wish that I hadn't taken people as close to the wall as I had -- as I had at times, because I think if you look at the long game, things come around. So no, I don't tell people if the interview doesn't go well. And I'll tell you why. 

JUSTIN: Okay. 

KEITH: Because everybody is good at something. Everybody is good at something, in my opinion. It just may not be what I need right now. So it's not by job to make somebody walk out of there feeling bad about themselves. My job is to fill my role. And so I think it goes back to showing people respect. Again, as far as -- I stand up when I meet somebody for the first time, and I shake their hand and I look them in the eye. It's about respect. And so I as -- as I've grown in my career, I think that's something that I like to show people. 

JUSTIN: Okay. Um, one -- one other question I have: have you ever talked yourself into hiring someone? Have you ever been on the fence, and you're like, I'm not sure, and then you went to okay, let's take a chance on them? Have you -- have you had that happen to you, and how did it work out?

KEITH: It never works out. 

JUSTIN: Never works out? 

KEITH: Never works out. 

JUSTIN: Right? It never works out. I was looking for like, a little bit of -- 

KEITH: Never works out. 

JUSTIN: I just had that happen to me recently where I -- my instinct was, this isn't gonna work, and then I was like, maybe I'm over-analyzing it, I said yes, it felt good in the moment, it's not two weeks later that you're like, oh no. Now I've got a warm body that can do no work. 

KEITH: And I understand what you're saying -- sometimes you need a warm body for data entry or whatever -- 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. 

KEITH: But if I'm interviewing someone for a data entry role, I am looking for, what is your personality and how are you gonna -- gonna do that? But for me personally, I'm looking for people who can grow in their career. Because if they come in and we train them and we invest in them, I want them to -- to wanna be there for the long term. 

JUSTIN: Anything else about interviews that you wanna share? Any, like, do's or don't's? Any, like, this must happen? Any Keith George, "this is the secret to my success on interviewing people" secrets you wanna share?

KEITH: I think the biggest risk that people look -- or, do in an interview, is, they walk in and they're looking for a mirror of themselves. They look for something that says, hey, these are things that I connect with. And I think that what happens is that people do place stereotypes or they start thinking, okay, why don't, you know, this isn't gonna work with me. And again, it comes back to, how does this fit with my team? What does my team need in being able to hire for that? 

JUSTIN: Words of wisdom from Keith George in the world of interviewing people to hire them. We're gonna take a minute and go to our ad break for our sponsors, Forlorn Hope. 

(music)

JUSTIN: I've talked about Forlorn Hope for the last six episodes. Have you ordered the wine from them yet? My gosh, stop what you're doing, go to forlornhopewines.com, use the Mr. Corpo discount, M-R-C-O-R-P-O, and get 15 dollars off your order. I mean, give me a break. If I told you I had access to the best wine in the world, and it was super affordable, and it was super small batch, and I was gonna get you 15 dollars off, wouldn't you take me up on that? So why aren't you doing it? Go to forlornhopewines.com and use the Mr. Corpo discount. Keith, you've modeled for wine companies, but do you drink wine?

KEITH: I do drink wine, but I don't model for them. 

JUSTIN: What is your favorite, red wine or white wine?

KEITH: I love red wine, usually with a little bit of spice and earth to it. 

JUSTIN: Okay, that's super pretentious. Would you say -- how many bottles of wine do you think you've drank in your entire life?

KEITH: Probably 5,000. 

JUSTIN: I think that sounds about right. 25:00 Keith, the wine hog. Forlornhopewines.com. Shoutout to Matt Rorick, the winemaker. Thanks for sponsoring the show. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Alright, welcome back from the break. I'm still here with Keith George. I wanna light up this section by talking about our first jobs. I wanna talk about Keith's first jobs, this is a new section. We're looking for a sponsor for this section, so give me a shoutout. But in the meantime, Keith George, first job, go. 

KEITH: Coca Cola truck driver. 

JUSTIN: Amazing. How old were you?

KEITH: Twenty-two. 

JUSTIN: And how much did you get paid?

KEITH: Six dollars and 50 cents an hour, after I got my college degree. 

JUSTIN: This cannot be true, that's 100 percent a lie. 

KEITH: It's 100 percent true. 

JUSTIN: How is that possible? You went to Virginia. 

KEITH: Well, basically -- I did. And -- go to show you what a UVA diploma's worth. No, but I did my internships in college on Capitol Hill and for better or for worse, I finished up those internships and I said, I don't wanna work on Capitol Hill. And I'm a little ashamed to say this, but my dad worked for Coca Cola, and I found out about a training program in Atlanta. And I was dating this girl who was moving to Atlanta. 

JUSTIN: Yep, that's how it goes. 

KEITH: That's how it goes. So, I went to Atlanta, and I'll never forget, the guy was offering me the job to be a truck driver at Coca Cola -- 

JUSTIN: Not a training program? Just a truck driver? 

KEITH: Well, so it was -- if you wanna get in this training program, you need to show that you can actually understand the business. So you need to like work in the stores and drive a truck and do that. So I went from being this snobby, dumb Virginia graduate to six dollars and 50 cents an hour, wearing a Coca Cola uniform with a patch -- not for irony -- the Coca Cola uniform, and driving a truck for six dollars and 50 cents an hour. 

JUSTIN: What kind of truck? A big truck, or -- 

KEITH: The big truck, baby! I can drive -- I can -- 

JUSTIN: You can do those, with all the different gears and stuff?

KEITH: I passed my road test in an 18-wheeler, true story. 

JUSTIN: Wait, I have a question. When you graduated from UVA, went for this interview at Coca Cola, how many popped collars were you wearing for the interview? Two?

KEITH: Zero. I was not a popped collar guy. I was not a popped collar. That's a Princeton thing, not a Virginia thing. But I did go for the interview, I did get the job. But what I'm happy about is that at the end of the day, the stuff that in -- in the moment, I hated, as far as going into these stores and saying, yes, sir, yes, ma'am to these convenience store managers, rotating the inventory, delivering the drinks on, you know, the day before Thanksgiving -- a lot of that is actually applicable now. It's customer service. It's marketing. It's pricing, it's promotions. It's inventory management. All those things -- 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh. 

KEITH: -- just blown up on a bigger scale. 

JUSTIN: That's amazing. 

KEITH: And I had -- I worked 11 days straight when I first started. And on the -- on the 12th day, I dropped -- this shows you how long ago, it was 1993 -- I dropped a -- a case of bottles on top of another one and a glass shot into my arm, I have a huge scar on my arm from it, and they gave me one day off to go to the doctor. And here I am 25 years later and I can look down -- and when I look at that scar, no matter how far I go, I think about that moment. 

JUSTIN: Keeps you humble. 

KEITH: Keeps me humble. And I have a little PTSD every time I see a coke truck on the road. 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh, that's fantastic. Now, did that scar on your arm affect your male modeling career at all, or -- I guess they have makeup artists for things like that, or, it's fine. 

KEITH: Yeah, there's retouching. 

JUSTIN: Yeah, lots of retouching. 

KEITH: Lots of retouching. 

JUSTIN: That is fascinating. Now, did you ever steal a case of coke? Were you allowed to drink from the coke selection? Or -- 

KEITH: No, but I will say that I worked late one night and I was in a bad part of town and they stole about 150 cases of coke off my truck. And -- 

JUSTIN: While you were in it, or what --?

KEITH: Yes. And what you don't know is that if that happens to you, you as the driver are responsible for those drinks -- 

JUSTIN: You paid for it?

KEITH: And I worked for free that day. 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh. That's a fantastic first job. Wow. Keith George, best first job ever, six dollars and 50 cents?

KEITH: Six dollars and 50 cents an hour, it was a tough job. But you know, at the end of the day, I have a ton of respect for those guys. 

JUSTIN: Alright, well, let's move on. I wanna talk about you and I. You and I work together, we haven't even told the listeners that we know each other -- 

KEITH: Yep. 

JUSTIN: But I've -- probably they figured it out. I knew you as this guy across the hall who was, you know, just a guy and maybe, I don't know what my impression was but I was like, oh, I don't know, he thinks he's smart, but he thinks he's smart, and so I think he's gonna be kind of annoying, you know, cause he was like so perfect. He looks perfect, he talks perfect, he's organized perfect. He's like Mr. Perfect. And so I was pretty nervous, or not looking forward to working together. I'll never forget this, was like my third day on the job. Keith and I were in a meeting, he said something to a group of people. One of my employees came up to me and said, well, what do you think? Keith disagreed with you on this. And I said to my employee, "Hey, don't worry about it. I'll handle Keith. I'll tell him what's going on." 30:05 And I went back in my office, and it was about 30 seconds later, Keith George walks into my doorstep, stands there and says, "If you have something to say to me, say it to my face and let's figure this thing out." And I looked at him and it was like that moment you fall in love with somebody. It's like, there were just hearts circling around his head, there were birds tweeting, and I looked at him and I just said, "I love you." And from that moment forward I think we were like amazing together, but it was just like, let's be real, let's be honest, let's get to work. And uh, do you remember that? Do you have a different recollection of that? 

KEITH: No, I absolutely remember that. No, what I recollect is that I was in a new role, I was scared to death, to be honest, and I wanted to do well, but I also didn't want to be pushed around. And the role that I was in had a rep -- had a reputation for being pushed around by your role. And I felt like if I didn't say something it was gonna bother me and it was gonna last too long. And we worked in an environment that had what I would say a good deal of passive-aggressivity. Just in the whole environment. 

JUSTIN: Yep, yep. 

KEITH: And so it was that moment where I was -- I was nervous coming in there saying it, but I think after that day -- 

JUSTIN: Yeah -- 

KEITH: -- we became close. 

JUSTIN: No, it was magic. And you know, it was one of those moments that was just a learning moment for me, where it's like, if you wanna have a real relationship with someone, you gotta be straight. And you gotta be honest. And just tiptoeing around each other or not saying what you mean is gonna take too long and not get you where you want. And you know, honestly, in 16 years of working, those were maybe my two favorite years. Um, you know, it was a great team, there were other people involved, but I think your partnership was the integral part of that. So anyway, it was a great experience for me. 

KEITH: I would agree. What I will say is, I've had a similar experience where I went into someone's office and I had -- and I said something to the same effect of, this is really upsetting me and here's how I feel and you need to say this. And they've acted the exact opposite way that you have -- 

JUSTIN: They didn't fall in love with you?

KEITH: They -- and -- but it showed me where we stood. 

JUSTIN: Right, yeah. 

KEITH: And from that moment on, I knew, you can't trust this person. You gotta like, deal with it in a different way. So, yeah.  

JUSTIN: Interesting, interesting. Alright. You're now out on your own, you're an entrepreneur starting up a business. Do you wanna talk about it for a minute, or you wanna keep it top secret and tell people to tune in later?

KEITH: No, what I -- what I'll say is that what I realized in my career was that I'd done a lot of corporate roles for a long time. And I wanted to do something more entrepreneurial. What I didn't think at the time -- and, and it's probably still true -- was, I'm not the guy who is gonna go from Gap, Inc and Coca Cola and these jobs to me and three guys in a garage working on -- on some idea. And you know, I wish that I was, but I'm probably not the guy who's gonna come up with the next Instagram. And that's okay. I know who I am. But I knew I wanted to do something more entrepreneurial. And so when I got the call to move to New York and take the Gilt role, I knew it was taking me on the path that I wanted to go. Something more entrepreneur -- entrepreneurial. My friend said, you know, all the equity, you know, has been taken, this company's three years old, etcetera etcetera. And all that, you know, may have been true. But the fact is, I knew that it was taking me on -- in the right journey that I wanted to go on. And then when we sold Gilt earlier this year, I knew that if I went right back into a corporate role, then my Gilt experience would have been a blip on the -- on my career. Whereas if I took it even more entrepreneurial than this, I'd be setting my own curve, and my own trend line, in a different direction. 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay. 

KEITH: And so, I got called for a lot of big roles out there, and instead I joined up with some guys that I worked with before, and we're starting a new business that we'll be launching in January. 

JUSTIN: Fantastic. What a great journey. Congratulations. Uh, the show's almost over, but I wanna give Keith a chance to ask Mr. Corpo anything he wants. So this is a new segment of the show, listeners can write in to mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. You can hit me up on Twitter at Mr_Corpo. Or you can hit me Instagram. But you can ask me anything and I'll answer it. I can solve your work problems. We can talk about it. Anything like that. But Keith, while I've got you here, any questions you wanna ask me? Anything at all. 

KEITH: What remains a mystery to me is, why is the least corporate person I knew continuing to work in the corporate world?

JUSTIN: The short answer to that is, I live in fear of my father. That would be the most concise answer to that question. 

KEITH: But your father was an entrepreneur. 

JUSTIN: Yes, but he -- anyway, I don't wanna go into it. Don't -- 

KEITH: You told me to ask any question. 

JUSTIN: Don't -- don't ask me! Don't ask me -- don't ask me to go deeper. I answered it, which is, I live in fear of my father. That's the first part, that's the real part. The second part of it is, I've really debated my whole life of, am I an artist? Am I a businessman? What am I? What should I be doing? How should I be spending my life? And to be totally frank, what I've realized is, corporate America gives me the balance of what I get paid for how much effort I put in for allowing me to do all the other things I'm passionate outside of work. 35:05 And so one of the breakthrough moments for me was when I was just coming up in work, it was like, especially the first ten years out of -- out of college, I'm like, I'm an artist, I'm a sellout, I'm working in corporate America. And I looked around my friends that were playing guitar, that were in bands or painters, and I realized, you have a nine to five job and you're getting paid eight dollars an hour. If I can have a nine to five job and get paid, let's say, 100 dollars an hour, well that seems like a pretty good deal for me. And so that's what really led me to this idea of becoming an efficiency monster and kind of competing with corporate America, so to speak. To say, you can get me from nine to five, or you can get me from six to five, but at five o'clock, that's my line in the sand to say, I'm either taking advantage of corporate America, or corporate America's taking advantage of me. It's so funny because I like to think of myself as a rebel or a punk, and it's like, give me a break. I've been working in corporate America 16 years, working at huge companies. I'm no punk, I'm no rebel. 

KEITH: What you're articulating is that you know why you are where you are now. And it is a -- it is a balance. And life is full of tradeoffs. And I don't care what -- who you think you are. You could be, actually, the greatest rock n'roll star in the world. You have a record deal to work with, you have endorsements. You gotta be here to make a public appearance. You're doing this radio spot that you're like, oh my gosh, here I am. But the fact of the matter is, is that there's not a person out there in the world that is -- that's -- that's living a life that doesn't have tradeoffs in it. But being aware of those tradeoffs is something that actually I think very few people do, and I think that you're doing a great job of acknowledging that and making those tradeoffs with a, you know, a -- a thoughtful approach. 

JUSTIN: Keith George, mentor, psychologist, male model. He's amazing. Keith, thanks for being on the show today. 

KEITH: Thank you very much. 

JUSTIN: That does it for the show today. Mr. Corpo, you can hit me on the social channels. Instagram, Twitter, I gave you my email, which was mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. I really, really, really, really, really need your reviews on iTunes. Go to the podcast channel and give me a review. I don't care if it's one or it's two or it's three or it's four or it's five, but give me a review. It moves us up the rankings, it helps more people know about us, and eventually we'll get some real advertisers that can start to pay my amazing producer, Rob, real money. He's nodding his head furiously. 

(music)

37:49 

 

Everyone loves vacation - but not everyone knows how to maximize vacation within the context of their job. As always - Mr Corpo is here to help. He explains how to get your boss to approve a 30 day vacation, why you should always take 3 weeks vacation before starting a new job, and why checking your email one time per day is ht best thing to do for you - and your team. BONUS SECTION includes a rationale for why you need to build your personal brand at work - and why ordering bees from the internet is a great place to start. We also introduce the first ASK MR CORPO segment which invites listeners to submit their work-a-day quandaries for Mr Corpo's consideration. Today's episode centers on what to do if you completely disagree with a major decision at your company.

LISTEN HERE: 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

How To Take Vacation (10/19/2016)

JUSTIN: Vacation, all I ever wanted. Vacation, had to get away. 

(Intro music)

JUSTIN: Vacation, let's talk about it. I just opened the show with some lyrics from the Go-Go's. Uh, my producer, Rob, reminded me that song might not actually be about vacation, it might be about a breakup. So whether you're going on vacation or you're breaking up, enjoy it either way. But here on today's episode, we're here to talk about vacation. I wanna talk about it from the boss's perspective, I wanna talk about how do you let your team take vacation, I wanna talk about when do you reply to emails. I wanna talk about how do you approve vacation. And then from the employee perspective, I wanna talk about how do you get 30 days of vacation in a row? I've done it, I'm gonna teach you how to do it. Also, in the bonus section, I'm gonna talk about how to build your personal brand at work. So without further ado, let's talk about vacation. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Now, what I wanna do here, right at the beginning is, I wanna tell you how to get 30 days of vacation in a row. In my case, my boss was leaving the company. They were bringing in a new boss. The new boss showed up, I set up a one-on-one meeting, I introduced myself, I talked about work, I talked about my priorities, and then I happened to mention right at the end, oh, by the way, the old boss, they approved me for 30-day vacation in January from this date to this date. I'd been saving up for it and we had built the schedule so that they could make it happen. And so the new boss has no choice. They have to say okay. It's already been approved. You've already made the plans. And the point is, you don't wanna make this a big deal. You just wanna sell it really softly and say, "Hey, just wanted to let you know, this is upcoming, it's a little bit unusual, but don't worry about it, I've got everything set." That's the point, alright?

Now, in my case, what I did with those 30 days, I was in a band, we were called The Blacks, we made the San Francisco valleys tour. We toured the country for 30 days. We played, I think, something like 27 shows. We were in Iowa, Illinois, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Arkansas, Oklahoma, California. And I had all my rock n'roll dreams come true. I also met my producer, Rob, at the New Years show in Iowa City. Rob, anything -- any fun memories from that? 

ROB: Well, I liked that you played in Kansas, as well. 

JUSTIN: I played in Kansas City -- 

ROB: Missouri. 

JUSTIN: Missouri. 

ROB: You played in Lawrence. 

JUSTIN: And I played in Lawrence, Kansas. I'm sorry. Rock Chalk, Jayhawk. I'm sorry to leave you out of the mix there. A lot of love for Lawrence, Kansas. It was amazing. So I encourage everyone, when your boss leaves, take advantage of this moment and claim your 30-day vacation. And here's the thing: you don't have to take the vacation right away. You have a window of probably 2-3 months where it's still acceptable to say, this vacation was already approved. I wouldn't recommend going too far down the road because everyone's gonna forget about the old boss and they're gonna say, why in the world do you get these 30 days six months from now. But I think you have a window within the first 2-3 months to make a claim for this 30-day vacation. So don't miss out on this opportunity. That's the secret. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Oh, actually, actually one more thing before we move on, and this is related to this idea of changing jobs and people coming and going between jobs. When you start a new job, do not start right away. You are an idiot if you start right away. In fact, when I hire people, if they don't negotiate for at least two weeks before their start date, I'm disappointed and I actually question whether I should have hired them. You should not start right away. And of course, every employer is gonna say, "Oh, we need you to start right away." That's just the default line. That's just white noise. You need to completely ignore them. You need to say, listen. I need a break, I wanna refresh, I've been running myself into the ground with this old job, let me come in fresh, let me come and do this. They've been surviving without you, and they'll survive another week, another two weeks, and guess what? Even another three weeks. 

If your employer insists on you starting because there's some big milestone meeting or there's some critical moment, you should agree to say, "Listen, I'll come in for that week, for this critical meeting, but then I wanna take my two weeks." And that will really make push come to shove. Either that meeting is that important and they'll invite you to come in, and then let you take vacation, or they'll say, you know what, it's not worth it, why don't you take your vacation, just join us at the end of the month. Do not miss this opportunity. 05:00 Take as much vacation, minimum two weeks. Negotiate towards three. That would be my advice for you. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Okay. Vacation is approved. Now, what? I have a few points I wanna make here. The first point is, life goes on without you. You aren't as important as you think you are to the company. And I know this because I've at points thought, "This company would fall apart without me." And the truth is, that's not true. Trust me, life will go on without you. Unless you're the sole proprietor and you're running the business completely by yourself, life goes on, work goes on with or without you. I'm sorry to have to break that news to you. 

The second thing I wanna talk about when it comes to vacation is, this is a great chance for your team. If you're a boss, this is a great chance to set them up for success. Let them attend meetings. Let them submit reports. You might be totally sick of that Monday morning meeting. You might not care at all. You might no no decisions happen in that meeting. But guess what? To your team, that is like this sacred jewel. It's like this secret meeting that they don't know what happens in there. And they're dying to get in there. They aspire to be in that room. They wanna be promoted so they can be in that room. So guess what? When you go on vacation, let 'em go in that room. They're gonna feel like they're getting all this extra responsibility. You trust them. And really, it costs you nothing. Don't leave it to chance. Be very prescriptive. Assign different meetings to different people. Give everyone a chance to feel good about themselves. And this is gonna be a win-win for you and your team. And it's gonna look good in your boss's eyes, cause you're gonna say, "Wow, we didn't skip a beat. Justin and his team, they're all organized, everything's going well, this is great." So don't miss that opportunity to highlight your team. 

Now, the other thing we should talk about is what happens to email? When should you check your email? Should you check your email all the time, and never fall behind on anything? Remember my first point? Life goes on without you. Now, I'm not gonna be totally outrageous and say no matter what you can never check email. I'm gonna be realistic. And here's what I do. Usually it depends on the situation, it depends on the team. If you got a mature team, you've been there for a while, maybe you truly, truly can unplug and not check any email. That's gonna be one type of situation. I'm gonna say the majority of us are in a situation where we've got a good team, not a great team. And what we need to do is stay a little bit plugged in. And in this case, what I'm gonna recommend, when you go on vacation, check your email one time per day. You check in, you scan it, you reply quickly or forward the email to other people who can reply to it. But let your team know you will check, but you're gonna check one time per day. They'll understand the tone of what you're trying to do. 

The other thing is, your friends, your wife, whoever you're on vacation with, if you're checking every ten minutes, every hour, you're gonna be the annoying guy. You're gonna be the annoying girl. You're gonna be the "Oh, look at me, my job's so important I have to check my email all the time" -- and guess what? No one wants to go on vacation with that person. So check your email once a day, that's it. Now, one other quick note I'll say on this. 

I always give my personal mobile number to my team, and I tell them specifically if there is an emergency, if there is something you absolutely need from me, text me on my phone. Now, the reason I do this is it separates if there's an emergency versus just normal work. So my mind doesn't have to worry if I'm missing an emergency. And the second point is, you notice I said personal mobile versus work mobile. I really hope you're keeping your work and your personal life separate. Because if you have your work email on your personal phone, and you're getting a notification every time you get a work email, you cannot relax. Keep them separate. This is critical to having a work/life balance. 

So I just hit a ton of points there about how to take vacation, how to check your email or not, and how to empower your team to have a great experience while you're on vacation. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Now, I'm almost finished talking about vacation. I'm -- Im surprised at how much I have to say about vacation. Usually I like to talk about work, but here we are talking about vacation. But one more note on the topic of vacation. And this is specific to bosses, if you're the boss of anybody. Approve everything. Don't lord it over your team that you get to approve when or when they don't get to go on vacation. Approve everything. 09:59 And I tell everyone on my team I will approve all of your vacation all of the time with no exceptions. But I have two easy rules: I say I always wanna have two weeks in advance, because this tells me there's enough time to prepare and they're not trying to catch me off with a, "I'm hungover" or "I just don't feel like coming to work." It shows that they're prepared and thinking in advance. 

And the second thing is, I tell them, get your work done and coordinate with the team. As long as your work done, you have the team cover for your work, you can take as much vacation as you want. And I don't even count the days, it doesn't matter to me. If the work's getting done, I want you to take vacation. You're gonna be refreshed, you're gonna have a good perspective. So my advice for bosses out there: let people take vacation, encourage them to take vacation, but just make sure you're organized and that everyone's helping each other out. So that's a really easy way to be popular with your team and keep the train moving. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Uh oh. It's that time again. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! Bonus section. Alright. On today's bonus section, we're gonna talk about building your personal brand. Now, I don't think is gonna be the last time we talk about this topic, but it's something that a lot of people overlook. And what I mean by this is, what are you famous for outside of work? What are you famous for outside of work? I said it twice cause it's that important. What do people say about you that's non-work-related. Do they say, "That's the creepy guy?" Do they say, "That's the guy who works late?" Or do they say, "Hey, he's a beekeeper." "Hey, she does ballroom dancing." "Hey, he's a baker." "Hey, she loves rock-climbing." "Hey, he's a standup comic." There's a lot of dead time in leadership meetings. There's a lot of travel, there's a lot of elevators, there's a lot of big meetings. You run out of things to say to each other, you run out of things to say to your boss. You're nervous with the CEO, you don't know what to say while you're waiting for the team to file in. You wanna have those little nuggets that show, "I know my team and I have something interesting to say about them."

Also, you wanna build your personal brand because you wanna be more than just the work that you have. Everyone's doing excel. Everyone's doing email. How do you set yourself apart? You're just one of a million people in that office? You're just one of a thousand. You're one of ten, you're one of 20, whatever the number is. What sets you apart? What are you gonna be famous for?

In my case, I took up beekeeping. And it was a new skill, I had all this fun outside of work. You can't believe the mileage I got out of that. People are introducing me to people outside the company. People are introducing me to the vice president or the president saying, "This is Justin. He leads this team. And guess what? He's a beekeeper." And all of a sudden the CEO looks at me and goes, "Hey, this guy is interesting. Hey, this guy has interests outside of work. Hey, he's willing to learn new things." It doesn't matter what it is. Figure out what is your personal brand outside of work. You've got to have something. If you don't have it, figure it out. Like I said about beekeeping, nothing made me a beekeeper other than I went to this place, I picked up a shoebox of bees, and I put 'em in my car and I drove 'em home, voila, I'm a beekeeper. You can even order bees in the mail. They will mail bees to your house. So if you can't think of anything else, go to the internet, order bees, you're a beekeeper. And now you're famous at work. So that's my bonus section tip: make sure you're working on your personal brand. What do people say about you outside of work in the workplace?

(music)

JUSTIN: As always, we wanna thank our sponsors, Forlorn Hope Wines. They give 15 dollars off when you use the Mr. Corpo discount code. That's M-R-C-O-R-P-O. And today I wanna talk about one of their special wines. And this is the Que Saudade (?). It's a white wine. It's a verdelho. For those of you that aren't great wine connoisseurs, verdelho is a white wine. I had to look it up, although I've drank plenty of it. And the point about this wine is, it's hand-harvested. It's whole-cluster pressed. It's bottled unfiltered and unfined. Now, you might wonder, what does unfined mean? Unfined means that there's no artificial additives in this wine that help make wine be clear. So I didn't know this, but there's actually this whole thing that happens in the winemaking process where they add all these ingredients. 15:01 They'll add things like egg whites, they'll add gelatin, usually made from horse hooves. They'll do all this weird stuff that helps clarify the wine and make it really clear. He added none of that. So it's gonna be a little bit cloudy. It's gonna be super interesting. And it's gonna be totally authentic and original. So check out the Que Saudade, which is a verdelho white from Forlorn Hope Wines. I love it, and you should too. 

(music)

JUSTIN: We're about to bring this episode to a close, but I can't move forward without hitting our new segment, Ask Mr. Corpo. You can hit me on Twitter at Mr_Corpo, you can hit me at Instagram at JDKJDKJDKJDK. It's exhausting saying that four times. Or, now this is new, you can hit me at mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. Now, the good thing about Mr. Corpo podcast is you can ask your questions anonymously. I got some feedback from listeners, I've been getting some questions, they don't want everyone else to know about it. So if they hit me on the social channels, maybe their co-workers, or their boss, or other people are gonna know what they're talking about, or know the questions they're asking. So I wanna give you a chance to ask these questions anonymously. 

So, one of the questions I got from our listeners was, "What do you do when you 100 percent wholeheartedly disagree with a decision in the company? What do you do in that case?" Now, I hate to do this, I hate when I watch the sports shows and they say, it's a little bit of both, and they never answer the questions. It's super annoying. But I'm gonna say it depends on the situation, and it depends on the moment. Is this a moment that you're gonna stand up in front of a room of 50 people and make some big statement? It's gonna be really dangerous. There's a lot of downfall to that, okay? So you've gotta be careful. And what you need to understand when processing in the meeting thinking about, "Should I say something, should I not say something?" People don't wanna be forced into making a big decision or a big proclamation in public in front of other people. So you've gotta know the audience, you've gotta know the surroundings, you've gotta decide, is this the time or not?

I'm gonna say the majority of the time, standing up in front of a big group and trying to yell someone down is not gonna be the way to play this. What I am gonna say is, after the meeting, go to your boss, ask for some time and say, "Hey, from where I sit, I see problems with X, Y, and Z. I'm concerned. But I wanted to listen to you so I could better understand it." And when you frame the question or the comment in this way, you're giving your boss or HR or whoever it may be a chance to feel like they're educating you, they're teaching you. You're saying, "I wanna learn, I wanna hear your perspective so I can better understand this." It's less accusational, it's less "I'm right, you're wrong." And it's more a teaching moment. So I would recommend to go that way. 

Now, if you're not satisfied with your boss, I think it's an excellent chance to reach out, and reach out to the person that made this big call. If it's the CEO, whoever it is. You are under your rights to send them an email and say, "Hey, I heard about this big decision, to be honest, I'm a little bit concerned or confused by it. Is there any chance you'd have five minutes to help me better understand it?" And guess what? They wanna hear that. They wanna know you're engaged. They're interested in it, and it gives you a chance to have your foot in the door to have a conversation. So, don't shy away from these moments. But pick the way you do it carefully, and there could be some big upside if you do it the right way. 

Alright, that's it for the Ask Mr. Corpo segment. Now, of course, I wanna give a shoutout to my producer, Rob. Rob, thanks for another great episode. Vacation episode was awesome. I totally love this. And by the way, just a reminder, if you wanna invite me to come talk at your company, to your small group, whoever it may be, give me a shout on the email. I'll go anywhere to talk to anyone, to talk about the book. Oh, and one more thing: if you wanna sponsor this show, if you've got a product, a small company, a big company, we're looking for support, we always wanna broaden our audience. And uh, you know, I'd love to be able to pay Rob, our producer, more money. So uh, give us a shout. 

19:33  

Ever wonder what it's like to be a comic? Tim Barnes is the host of the It's All True podcast and a working comic in New York City. Tim joins Mr Corpo to talk about tweeting from bed, waking up at 11am, quitting your job to take an unpaid internships, why he wants to be just like Whoopi Goldberg, and how awesome it is to have enough money to go to the movies whenever you want. Tim also shares his favorite flavor of wine - Suicide (hint: it's white and red mixed together) - and explains why you can never remember what a comic says 2 minutes after they just said it.

 LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Meet Tim Barnes -- The World's Tallest Comic (10/5/2016)

JUSTIN: I'm thinking of a number between one and ten. Hi, welcome to Mr. Corpo podcast.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mr. Corpo podcast. I'm so excited to welcome a special guest. I -- I almost want to say super special guest, but I'm gonna say special guest and then we'll see how it goes. Our special guest today is Tim Barnes. He is a comedian. He is also the leader, the -- the spokesman for his podcast, It's All True! And also, he's the tallest guest we've ever had on the Mr. Corpo podcast. Tim, welcome.

 

TIM: Thanks for having me. When you said special guest, I was like waiting to like, look around the corner to see who was gonna walk out. Can't believe it's me. I'm very excited.

 

JUSTIN: Well, Tim, one of the things we like to do on the Mr. Corpo podcast is ask people, what is your theme music? If you had to have your walk on music, what would you want playing when you walked up to bat?

 

TIM: I -- I really love the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson theme song. I think about --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, I'm not that old, so...and you don't look that old either, so --

 

TIM: I'm an old soul.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: What was that music?

 

TIM: It was a -- it just kinda went, duh, duh, duh duh,  , duh, duh, duh, duh duh,  , duh duh duh duh duh...you know.

 

JUSTIN: Oh. Alright, well that'll help our demographics for the older audience.

 

TIM: Yeah, it's kinda this sort -- this swinging jazz music you -- you really feel like it's show business when you hear this song.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, alright. So you're not about the lyrics, you're more about like, the tune and the --

 

TIM: I'm more about the tunes, yeah, and someone, you know, the Tonight Show used to be a big deal for comics. If you did a set on Johnny Carson, it changed your entire career.

 

JUSTIN: Now I'm gonna take a leap here and I'm gonna imagine most of the people listening to the Mr. Corpo podcast are not comedians. So tell me what is it like to be a comedian? What is a day in the life of a comedian? Take me from the moment you wake up, what happens?

 

TIM: Well, at this point in my life, I -- I think it's -- it's important to clarify where I am as a comedian. I've been doing comedy for four years now, which is like, I'm still a baby. If you ask most uh, career comics right now, just a child.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: Four years is a long time, you graduate from college in four years, but in terms of comedy, it's still like a little -- little baby step away from -- from the next phase, if that makes sense.

 

JUSTIN: How many shows do you think you've done so far?

 

TIM: How many shows? Um, I've definitely done -- wow, I -- I -- probably --

 

JUSTIN: Over 100?

 

TIM: Over 100, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Over 150?

 

TIM: Yeah, I'd say maybe 200.

 

JUSTIN: What about like less than 190, or more than 190?

 

TIM: Uh, to be on the safe side, I'd say less than 190. I don't know, but --

 

JUSTIN: Okay. How about 189 shows? Or --

 

TIM: That might be right. Yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, we'll go with 189, okay. Nonetheless, tell us what is the day in the life of a comic?

 

TIM: Uh, it depends on if you have a day job or not.

 

JUSTIN: Do you have a day job?

 

TIM: No, right now I'm doing a lot of freelance stuff. So a day in my life, uh, is I wake up pretty late, maybe 11, maybe 12...

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh. This sounds fantastic. Okay, keep going. Our listeners want that kind of job.

 

TIM: Um, I tweet -- I tweet a lot. I probably do -- I probably do some morning tweets.

 

JUSTIN: Like when you wake up -- are you still in bed when you're tweeting?

 

TIM: I'm still in bed, yeah. Most of the first half of my day, I'm still in bed.

 

JUSTIN: Now, does your humor change throughout the day? Do you have like bedtime/I'm waking up tweets? And bedtime humor? And then it changes as you get through the day, or --

 

TIM: I'd say later in the night it get -- it gets more absurd, because --

 

JUSTIN: Is that based on how much you're drinking, or --

 

TIM: Not necessarily. I think it's just based on the vibes of the nighttime. My brain is wandering into abstract places. Uh -- yeah, I definitely just some very -- weirder things.

 

JUSTIN: How many tweets would you say you send out in a day?

 

TIM: Maybe 15.

 

JUSTIN: Fifteen tweets a day? Alright. I thought you were gonna say 50. I was gonna be like I'm not sure if I can follow you if it's 50.

 

TIM: Yeah. It's very stream of consciousness. Some people take a lot of time and meticulous care with their tweets, but I like to use it as a place --

 

JUSTIN: You're like a volume guy.

 

TIM: Yeah. Or it's just -- I -- I see Twitter as a place where nothing matters. Compared to when you're on stage, everything matters. So I just throw everything out there on Twitter.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright. So 15 tweets a day, that's pretty good. And is that an important part of building your audience? Do you think about that at all?

 

TIM: I do.

 

JUSTIN: Or you just think if people are following me, they're into it, if they're not, they're gonna jump off, or --

 

TIM: I guess so. I -- I -- I do think if people are into me, they're gonna -- they'll dig it. And I hope people discover me. I feel like there is a benefit -- a benefit to it. Uh, thing -- wonderful things have happened because of -- of Twitter. Um, people that I respect --

 

JUSTIN: Like the Egyptian revolution, or just -- you're talking about your own personal Twitter, okay.

 

TIM: Yeah, well like, people that I respect comedically dis -- have discovered me through Twitter. 05:01 Um, so that's good. It's -- it's a way for -- it's a -- it's almost an equalizer.

 

JUSTIN: Alright so we haven't even gotten out of bed yet. You've tweeted a few times. And now what happens? It's 11 o'clock. Like, what's -- what's going on? What's going through your head?

 

TIM: Uh, I check a lot of me email. Uh, like I say, I do some freelance stuff, so I try to figure out if there's stuff I can do, or um, uh, I -- I do uh, podcast reviews for the AV Club right now. So I'll try to keep an eye on things and, I'm trying to organize my life through the emails, you now? Cause there's emails you gotta catch up on. You don't feel like you've really on top of things until you -- you've done that kind of stuff, you know?

 

JUSTIN: You know, I wrote a book called How To Write An Email, right? It's -- are you plugging my book, or like -- you should read my book.

 

TIM: I should, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You know, I don't know if you've read my book but -- I -- I actually subscribe to the same thing, so we have something in common. I organize my entire work life through my emails. And the different between you and me is, I get into work at 6:30 in the morning. And I send out all the emails I need to send out for the day, if I'm waiting for an answer I remind people or you know, I open my email and -- actually this reminds me of something with email. Every day I open my email in hopes of getting some kind of email that might say, "Justin, we think you're amazing and we want to do a TV show and a movie, and we wanna do a book deal. Just anything it takes to work with you." Like, that's actually something I've never admitted to anybody, but I wake up every day, I open my email and think, maybe it's gonna be there. So I mean, does --

 

TIM: There -- there's an element of that with me, too, because I mean, just the other day I got an email for a writer -- writing packet for a show. For a pilot for a show.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, yeah.

 

TIM: So with comedy it's -- it's -- I'm hoping someone wants to book me for a show, or someone, uh --

 

JUSTIN: Like, is it every time you open it, like a little butterfly like floats up?

 

TIM: Yeah, every time I get that notification I think this could be -- this could be anything. It could be uh, a low-balance alert on uh, my bank account. Or it could be, uh --

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh. So if you wanna fuck with Tim Barnes, just start emailing him just all the time, just to get his blood pressure up. Hey, just saying hi, Tim. Then just like two minutes later, just like, saying hi again. Like, it's totally gonna mess you up.

 

TIM: Yeah. I mean, emailing is important to comedians. Cause I mean, especially as a -- a new comic in New York, uh, the way I've gotten a lot of shows is by finding out the booking emails and sending out a message, you know?

 

JUSTIN: Really? Okay.

 

TIM: So a lot of it is like, like just yesterday I took the time to look at all the messages and emails I got about shows so I could write it down on my website.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: So that organizational part is important.

 

JUSTIN: Now, I'm just gonna ask the obvious question: do you feel pressure to be funny in those emails? Or how -- what's your approach to email? Like, that's not the way -- it doesn't carry your tone, like try and keep it simple?

 

TIM: Yeah. I think the unwritten rule of -- of doing uh, comedy is that you don't try to be funny in person or through emails. You kinda save that...

 

JUSTIN: Are you doing that on this podcast?

 

TIM: (laughs) Yeah, save that.

 

JUSTIN: That was a joke.

 

TIM: I know, yeah. But it's like if you -- I mean, comedians are funny when they're talking to each other. But it has to come from an honest place. You never really see comedians just like, hamming it up.

 

JUSTIN: I totally agree. Actually there's a few -- I learned a few things about comedians, or comics, as you like to call them. I lived in Chicago for a summer after I graduated from college. I live with some improv olympic people, and they knew some people at Second City, and so this was -- you know, I know the improv world, different than the comic world, but the one thing I learned that summer while I was there -- I was actually acting in a play -- the one thing I learned about people who do improv is, they are the most insecure people in the world. Now, I'm not telling you where to go with that comment, but...agree or disagree?

 

TIM: Yeah...well I'd say, uh, improv people have it a little more together than a little comics, standing comics.

 

JUSTIN: Oh really? Okay.

 

TIM: I think, uh...or -- or maybe standup comics are, you know, using comedy to, uh, to kind of grandstand against their insecurity. But I think -- I think standup comics are more insecure than improvisors. Because I -- I had this feeling in Chicago, especially -- like the standup and improv world didn't really mix together a lot, I feel like it's different in New York. But um, improvisors always had better jobs.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. I understand, you're right.

 

TIM: They're lies --

 

JUSTIN: They almost had a regular job, and then they did this, they let it out a little bit --

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So, I wanna talk a little bit more about your day in the life of a comedian. So we've gotten up, we're going to lunch, you've checked your email. Now what? Are you literally living and dying by whether you're gonna get that next standup show? Are you hustling to try and get shows? Like, what does success look like at this point in your career? What's a good day, what's a good week for you right now?

 

TIM: Well, I think uh...the key is -- is -- is -- it's balanced by what my idea of success is, at my -- as a comic, I -- I don't have the idea of becoming like a road dog. 10:05 Like the idea of a show in a different city every -- every night isn't really what appeals to me. Like, I like the balance of doing standup at shows and also doing something comedic in the media world. So my ideal situation is to be writing for a show or creating something with audio or video editing, and also doing standup. So I'm -- I have enough shows. But you know, a situation I was in in Chicago that I felt very comfortable with was, I was working for this startup TV station where I was doing a lot of comedic work for videos, creating these segments and things. And I brought my podcast there as well. So I felt creative at work, and then I was also doing shows. To me, that's the ideal situation.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Now, when you're doing these videos, were you on air? Were you in front of the camera? Or are you a behind the camera guy? What do you like?

 

TIM: I was on -- I was on camera, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You like it?

 

TIM: So I was kinda -- I was kinda doing everything. I would do on-camera stuff, I would do editing, I would come up with the ideas, uh, near the end there were -- I think only three episodes came out because the startup, uh, ended up collapsing like a lot of startups do.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay, yes.

 

TIM: Um, I had this uh, daily segment called "Hm? With Tim Barnes" that we were doing. And so I actually had this writing -- uh, this writers room with uh, people that I loved. It was -- it was the best experience I've had so far, uh, comedically. So --

 

JUSTIN: I mean, that sounds fantastic, actually. Like, your own segment on a TV show. Like, that's halfway there.

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Tell me, where does money come into this? So, in the life of a comic, you're getting all these different gigs, I just saw you at a show over in Brooklyn last week, it was fantastic, you're absolutely hilarious, and I have a couple questions about that. Um, but where does money come into this? Cause I know a lot of those shows, you're kinda piecing it together. I mean, it's like a band life. You're taking these shows, you wanna get in front of people, but it's not like the payday is necessarily there for these one-off, standup shows. So -- so how does money enter into the equation?

 

TIM: That's something I'm -- I'm still trying to figure out. But I think that also has to do with my personal equation of how I want my comedic life to be. Uh, I've really don't like the idea of relying on standup for money. Like I'm trying to build something a little -- little bigger than that. I know this is a -- this isn't nec -- this isn't necessarily an example of what...of what I want my career to be. But I do think about Whoopi Goldberg a lot, you know?

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: When you think of Whoopi Goldberg, what do you think of?

 

JUSTIN: Uh, that -- uh, sister act movie.

 

TIM: Do you think of her as a comedian?

 

JUSTIN: Well, no, actually you're right. I think of her as kind of all-encompassing entertainer. Because I didn't even know her as a comedian. I knew her as a movie actress, and then I know she's on The View now. I think she married Ted Danson at one point --

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: -- for a moment. But --

 

TIM: But that's -- that's like, that's -- that's -- that's what I kind of want. I want to get to a point, at some point in my life where no one even knows why they know who I am.

 

JUSTIN: If we were to say that was number ten on a scale of one to ten, where would you say you are in your career right now?

 

TIM: I'd say I'm probably at either three or four.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: And what does it take to get you to five? What -- what's gonna get you to five? We don't want to get you to ten, we can't get you to ten, but what does it take to get you to five?

 

TIM: I think, um, a little more of the business aspect of comedy. I need to -- I need to get better at.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: It's something I've always avoided cause I don't like -- I feel very uncomfortable in business situations.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: I um...

 

JUSTIN: Like negotiating the contract when they ask you, or when they say hey, do you do this show, and they say how much do you charge, and you're like...

 

TIM: Not necessarily that part, but just -- there is the other element of uh, getting an agent or a manager and stuff like that, like -- I know that's important but I don't know -- it all -- it's all very weird to me in a very real way, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. But I mean, I think you're taking some positive steps. Let's talk about your -- you're doing your own podcast, you've been doing that for a while.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Um, it's called It's All True! and there's an exclamation point at the end of that, which is emphatic.

 

TIM: Yes, cause I love exclamation points, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: I love that. Now, I wanna let you talk about your podcast, but before we get there, I -- I was -- I've been listening to your podcast before the show, and I noticed that you have 39 reviews, 38 of which are five star reviews. But one of the reviews is only a four star.

 

TIM: Wow.

 

JUSTIN: Now, I'm just wondering what was going through this person's head that they felt like, I -- it's good, but it's not great. It's four star, but it's not five star. It wasn't like they give you a one star and they're like, I don't like Tim's humor. It was literally, I think he's just one degree less than a five star, so --

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: What do you think they were thinking?

 

TIM: I think -- I think, I mean that's how I would -- I mean, I don't grade things like that, but I did, uh, I did um...judge an air guitar competition a couple months ago, and I think about that...

 

JUSTIN: You found a -- you found a difference between a five star and four star performance?

 

TIM: The idea of five is perfection, you know.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: 15:00 And I -- the toughest person to judge, I think in any judging situation, is the first person. Cause you're not comparing it to anything. You're comparing it to this abstract idea. But then the more you get to the show, then you're comparing all these other people to each other. And then you fine tune this idea of who was better than the other person.

 

JUSTIN: So you don't think that was like, an angry ex-girlfriend or like, a parent who's like really upset at like, that you used a bad word? Cause I did notice you have some explicit content in your podcast.

 

TIM: No, no. I do, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Actually, while we're on that topic, how do your parents feel about you being a comic?

 

TIM: I think, um, they were very concerned at first. When I moved to Chicago, that's kinda when I really started focusing the most on comedy. Before that I had just kinda went out into a couple open mics, uh, without telling anybody about it. So, it was shocking when the -- when I told them, I wanna go to Chicago. But I think the idea of going to Second City, which kinda seems like a school, was -- was something --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, you went to Second City?

 

TIM: Yeah, I tried it and I -- I realized I didn't like it. Um --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright.

 

TIM: Um, but I think that that made them a little more comfortable.

 

JUSTIN: Yes.

 

TIM: Oh, he's going to school.

 

JUSTIN: Well, they can tell their friends, oh, he's going -- Tim's going to Second City. And you know who else went to Second City?

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You know, Bill Murray was at Second -- so your parents had a way to kind of justify it or talk about it at the cocktail party, they're like, what's Tim doing? And they're like, um, he's at Second City, the same place as this other famous person.

 

TIM: Yeah. And I was so excited to be struggling, too. I moved to Chicago with a little less than 3,000 dollars, no job in the -- in the -- in the works when I got there. Um, but I was so --

 

JUSTIN: But you made it work?

 

TIM: Somehow made it work. And I was so -- I loved starving, you know? I loved the idea of being a starving artist. It was the most alive I've ever felt.

 

JUSTIN: Okay so I'm actually -- I'm gonna make a comment here. Only someone -- did you come from like a middle class background, or --

 

TIM: That's the thing. Like, my -- my parents never -- never allowed me to understand the concept of class.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

TIM: So I think I was middle class, but I don't -- like anything -- they made anything happen. But I don't know what amount of struggle was behind, you know, behind closed doors.

 

JUSTIN: No, I think I -- I just respond to that because I would say -- I've very similar to your background then, maybe. I wasn't really clear on that there were any classes in the world, or what's happening. But you know, and -- and it kinda came and it went. But I remember I took a cross-country bike trip, and it was the first time I had rebelled against my parents, it was the first time -- I only had 1,000 dollars to get across the country. And I would go into the convenience stores and I prided myself on how little money can I spend. And it was like, oh, these banana-flavored Twinkies are only 99 cents, like, I'll buy those. Rather than the thing I actually could have want -- would have wanted. And so I just res -- I responded to that because that's -- some way, that's a powerful reaction against...not your upbringing, but just a different experience for you.

 

TIM: Yeah. And I -- my nuclear family's small. So it's just me, my sister, and my parents. But my dad is one of eight siblings --

 

JUSTIN: Wow.

 

TIM: -- and it's just a, like, and then my -- my grandpa, my mom's dad, uh, uh, let's just say I have a lot of grandmas on her side of the family. So I have this big, complicated family. And I never felt like I fit in to it. Like, I never fit into this -- this sort of mold. So I always felt a little off. And so it was -- it was um, yeah, moving to Chicago was -- was good for me.

 

JUSTIN: So, alright. We're catching up on your podcast career. You moved to Chicago, you start your podcast. You -- you've actually interviewed a lot of very famous people, I was very impressed. Eddie Izzard, he kinda sounded a little bit like a dick, but uh...oh yeah, Tim's not -- Tim's not commenting but uh, there's a laugh there, so -- I don't know, you've interviewed a lot of famous people, right?

 

TIM: Yeah. Well -- well the history with the podcast is weird, and maybe there's -- there's something to -- to learn from -- from this. But um...I started it because I was writing for this website called The Whiskey Journal, which is similar to The Onion, in Chicago. A comedian started it. It's a satirical news website. And the guy who created it, Kyle Scanlan, had this audio editing equipment that he wasn't use -- not audio editing, but this recording equipment that he wasn't using. It was like, hey, if you ever wanna start a podcast just come up with something and we'll put it on the website. And so, since it was, uh, a fake news-based website, I came up with this idea, but I wanted to incorporate elements of podcasts that are real like -- so Radiolab I really like, I love the Sonic elements of that. And I really like this podcast called The Dinner Party Download, which started off as about 10 to 15 minutes long, but I think now it's a little longer. But it's segmented, and that's what I really liked about it. Cause every episode, you knew what you were gonna get, but there were different things in those segments. So the idea of this show is that it's everything you need to know that week before you go to a dinner party. So it starts off with a joke, then you get into this historical fact, and then they have a bartender make a drink based off that fact, and it just --

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh, that's a great idea. I'm gonna check that out.

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. So I love that. 20:00 And then I also wanted to something like WTF. So I made it a storytelling show that starts off with an interview, and then they have to tell me a headline before they tell me that story. And I want -- once it gets to that story, I add in all these sonic elements. And I really created it as a way to learn how to edit audio. Because part of -- you know, I've always wanted to do a little bit of everything. Before I was a comic, I wanted to be a film maker. Um, and part of why I want -- why I like the idea of Chicago is because I knew This American Life was there. Even though This American Life was already in New York by that -- by that point. Um...(laughs) -- but so, yeah. The evolution of the show is because when I first came to Chicago, I just wanted to feel a part of the city, because LA doesn't really feel like a city, California is this huge state --

 

JUSTIN: Truth, truth.

 

TIM: Nothing really -- you don't feel like you're interacting with anything. So I used to volunteer for all these weird places. And one thing led to another. I started volun -- volunteering at WBEZ. Uh, so I just got -- I just vaguely got to know different people. There was a com -- there was a comedian in Chicago at the time, I think he's in LA now, named Brian Babylon, who's a frequent guest on wait -- Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

TIM: Uh, and he had a morning talk show on Vocalo, which is the sister station to WBEZ. Um, and so since he was a comic, he would see me at all these weird places. He would see me at like weird WBEZ banquets volunteering, and then at a comedy show. And that was just all over the place. Cause I really was just all over the place. And so one day after a show he just walked up to me and said, "Who the fuck are you?" And then I just told him what all my interests were and it's like, alright I'm gonna make you my intern. It was an unpaid internship, and I was working at Dunkin Donuts at the time.

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh.

 

TIM: But I was so excited about this idea of entering the world of media that I quit my job at Dunkin Donuts and --

 

JUSTIN: For the unpaid internship?

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: And I like the idea, like, the -- the absolutely ludicrous idea of like, walking up to someone and being like, I'm gonna make you my intern. And it's like...and the second sentence is like, and I'm not gonna pay you. And it's like, are you excited now?

 

TIM: Yeah, but --

 

JUSTIN: It worked on you, though!

 

TIM: Yeah, it worked. And you know, it's the sister station to WBEZ. So thought that, I was -- I mean, they're in the same building.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: Uh, so through that I was just in the home of -- I mean, one of the most recognizable public radio station names and --

 

JUSTIN: Good resume-builder.

 

TIM: Yeah, exactly.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: So I was uh, doing stuff there. And then this internship opened for WBEZ in their podcast network. The people at Vocalo recommended me for that. And then in the interview, I already knew the person. Joe DeCeault, because I had met him through the volunteering stuff. Um, I mentioned my podcast and then he like, expressed interest in it and like, listened to a couple of the early episodes, which sound very rough, if you listen to them. Like episode one --

 

JUSTIN: They're so different. I went back and listened to your first episode, you know, cause I'm just launching this podcast.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: I actually threw out the first recording of our first episode.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: And of course, after the first one I was like, "Rob, that was really good." And he was like, "Yeah, totally..."

 

TIM: Yeah. And I -- yeah, yeah. It's crazy, like -- I never listen to those. I've thought about deleting them. But they're -- I -- but I like this idea of --

 

JUSTIN: They hold up, they hold up.

 

TIM: Yeah. And I like this idea of not deleting history, with -- I think with the internet, people get used to this idea that you can just delete anything. But I like the idea of like...

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, there's a lot of people, they talk about high schoolers who curate their Instagram, they don't get enough likes, they delete the picture right away, as if that's embarrassing. And I think --

 

TIM: Yeah. I know comedians like that, too. Who -- who'll delete a joke if it doesn't get enough likes and stuff.

 

JUSTIN: But I think that's the thing, like -- the world wants the real. Like, the good and the bad, and they wanna see people fail, and they wanna lift 'em up again, and -- but you -- but you talked about something while you were talking about the podcast there. Sounds like even as a comic, you're building your resume. So you're -- you're kinda building one stepping stone to the next, trying to build these networks?

 

TIM: Yeah, well, the reason I do that is because I never graduated college.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, wow.

 

TIM: So, every achievement feels really great because of that, but it -- it is also this element of like, I might as well try to build a resume that looks really good without college. So do it at --

 

JUSTIN: Well at this point it doesn't matter.

 

TIM: Yeah, this point it doesn't matter.

 

JUSTIN: Did you go to college for a little while?

 

TIM: I went to Santa Barbara City College for a couple years. That's where I studied film.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, I know that well. And then you transfer up to Santa Barbara and you go live on La Playa or De La Playa or --

 

TIM: Yeah, I lived -- I lived --

 

JUSTIN: And you party your brains out --

 

TIM: Yeah, well --

 

JUSTIN: Pretend to get a college degree...I know that whole thing, yeah.

 

TIM: Yeah, well that wasn't really my -- I followed this kid -- this is, my life is -- I -- I remember my life through interviews. I don't --

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: But I uh, the last year of high school I ended up going to this summer camp at uh, the New York Film Academy in LA. So it was the New York Film Academy at Universal Studios, California.

 

JUSTIN: Complicated.

 

TIM: Complicated, yeah. And one of my friends from that summer camp, uh, was going to Santa Barbara City College, so I just followed him there, because I had no idea how to apply to like -- by the end of high school, I was like, I don't -- people keep talking about college, but I don't know how to do this. Especially my pa -- my parents didn't go to college, so I think you know, 25:00 we were kind -- like, trying to learn stuff together. I think they perfected this with my little sister more than me.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, right. Yeah, you were the experiment.

 

TIM: But I didn't know -- yeah, yeah. I didn't know what was going on. And I didn't care about it either. That's why I quit. Cause I just realized, even if I got a degree tomorrow, I wouldn't care.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. No, it's -- it's amazing sometimes, your parents do come in handy. You know? And like I think my parents made me apply to colleges, like, I wouldn't have known what to do if they hadn't, like, practically filled all the forms for me. It's like, you know, one thing leads to another. But I guess I was lucky in that way, yeah.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Um, so -- I wanna come back here. Um, you move to Chicago with 3,000 dollars, you start the podcast, you're building your resume, you just move to New York City. How much money did you have in your wallet when you moved to New York City?

 

TIM: I -- I don't even wanna disclose that.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, let's leave it to the listeners' imaginations. I love that. I was just trying to give you a point up there, where like --

 

TIM: Yeah, I mean, I got -- I had two jobs in Chicago. I mean, my first three jobs in Chicago, the first one was I was a host at the California Pizza Kitchen in Chicago.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, Thai Chicken Pizza. I love that. Okay. But you're a host there, okay, alright.

 

TIM: I was a host there. Uh --

 

JUSTIN: No tips when you're a host.

 

TIM: Uh, I think I get some tips from --

 

JUSTIN: They pooled it?

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. They pooled it. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: Um, and that was just a favor that came from a friend of a friend of my dad's, I think.

 

JUSTIN: That was an easy job though, right?

 

TIM: Very easy job, yeah. Um, after that it was Dunkin Donuts. And then I quit Dunkin Donuts. And then, uh, by the time I -- I got to the podcast internship at WBEZ was paid, but it was like -- it was like a pretty low stipend kind of thing. And so then I also got a job at an Einstein's Bagels. So it was Einstein's Bagels part time, WBEZ part time.

 

JUSTIN: Our producer Rob also worked at a bagel shop in Lawrence Kansas. Here I am across the table from two bagel masters.

 

TIM: I'd say, the -- you know, the bager -- the bagel world isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's not...yeah. You really learn how to hate humanity at these jobs.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, so those were three different jobs, yeah.

 

TIM: So that was three different jobs. Uh, by the time the podcast internship ended, I got this job. And this is based off of my resume of just being known for like, editing comedy videos in Chicago. Uh, so -- uh, someone who also, um, did comedy hired me to be uh, under him at WGN Radio for their new media position of like, doing video for their website. And that was the most -- that was -- I think it was like 30K or something like that. Something, you know --

 

JUSTIN: Wow, yeah, that's good.

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. It was great, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You can layer that in and then get all of your comic on top of that.

 

TIM: Yeah, exactly. But I was so excited to finally -- I'd never been in that position in my life. I was like, I can just go to a movie whenever I feel like it.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, great.

 

TIM: I can do anything. Yeah, so I would just be like draining my money until the next paycheck came, cause the next paycheck was so big, it was...(laughs)

 

JUSTIN: Endless wealth, here! My 30K, it's gonna go on forever!

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. And then of course, you know, I didn't know, like especially with these newer-type jobs that you have to like really be very weary of the end of the fiscal year, cause that's when things start to get cracked down. So by the time -- by the beginning of January, that -- my job was gone. And that was, uh, unemployed again. And you think I would learn my lesson from that. Uh, but I kept doing the -- even when I was at WGN Radio, I kept doing this podcast for WBEZ, which at that point, after the internship, I wasn't getting paid for it, which was also a little weird. But um, it's just, yeah, the complicated nuance of --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, chalk it up to life.

 

TIM: Yeah. And I continued to do the podcast for free after I lost the WG -- WGN job. But they had built up this sort of popularity in a way that I got to leverage that to getting -- I leveraged, through the podcast, me getting a job for that startup TV station.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, yeah.

 

TIM: They were like, if you bring the podcast over here, uh, we will pay you -- that was like 40K or something like that. Um...

 

JUSTIN: Well, that's good. Alright, keep moving up.

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. But it was the same situation, like -- and for this one, I didn't see anything coming, you know? Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: But -- but now that you're here in New York, you don't feel pressure to look for one of these like, salary jobs right now? Or, I mean, you're only two months in.

 

TIM: I mean, I am. Yeah, I'm applying -- I'm applying to a lot of salary jobs.

 

JUSTIN: You are? Okay, okay.

 

TIM: Uh, but I'm trying not to -- my darndest not to do is to apply for a bagel shop.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: You know what I mean?

 

JUSTIN: Been there, done that.

 

TIM: Like that is -- I mean, that's why I have so much free time, cause it's like -- and I've gotten to the point where I have -- I've had a few interviews and things happening, and then even comedically, like, a few write -- packets that I've gotten to write and stuff. So things feel like they're in a positive direction. But it's like, I don't want -- I got so used to that lifestyle. And I feel a little weird about that, too. But I just don't want to step back.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, sure. Well -- well listen, I think it sounds like you're making things happen here in New York. Listen, our beers are out. So I wanna go get new beers, I wanna take a break, and let's go to commercial really quick, and we'll be right back with Tim Barnes.

 

TIM: Sounds good.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Tim, do you drink wine?

 

TIM: All the time. 30:00

 

JUSTIN: Chardonnay or the red stuff?

 

TIM: I like to mix 'em both together, it's called suicide.

 

JUSTIN: Is that true? I think suicide -- when I was growing up, that was Dr. Pepper, Coke, Sprite, all together. But for you, it was white and red wine. Oh dang, alright. Well Tim Barnes, giving ideas for next season's Forlorn Hope collection. As always, you can get the discount using the Mr. Corpo podcast, M-R-C-O-R-P-O at the forlornhopewines.com. Fifteen dollars off when  you buy three bottles or more. And Matt, our famous winemaker, please look into the suicide mix for next season. Tim, thanks for your pointer.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Welcome back, everybody. We've got Tim Barnes here, our special guest. During the break, he and I were connecting. Earlier on in the show I'd talked about his stories about childhood really resonating with me, and how we had a connection. And then I realized he grew up in South Central LA, and I grew up in Newport Beach, California. So...

 

TIM: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the connection was, I wasn't allowed to go outside as a kid. So I felt -- and I was very content with that. I didn't wanna go outside as a kid. So it was a win-win situation.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, okay, alright. So that -- that was our connection. But it was kind of like not a connection either --

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: -- because like, I grew up on the beach and you grew up in the city. So maybe we have almost nothing in common.

 

TIM: Yeah, I mean, did you -- I -- I've never identified with people my age. I always hung out with old people.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, I was always with the older people. And I can relate to you on the level of, I used to stand my -- I almost said apartment -- but in my house, and build Legos for 48 hours straight. And I would play Super Nintendo, I would play the baseball game, I would fart about 500 times with the doors closed, and then like, my parents would open the door and I'd be like building the train Lego set, and it was just like, a stink bomb in my entire room. And I would listen to Bon Jovi on cassette. It was the Young Guns movie.

 

TIM: I think that's -- that's where our connection ends.

 

JUSTIN: Oh really? You're not going with me on that. Shot down in a blaze of glory! Anyway, I knew that entire album frontwards and backwards off the cassette, but -- but I digress. I wanna talk about Tim, and I wanna talk about his sense of humor. I wanna talk about your standup set. I saw it about a week ago. I thought it was fantastic. One of the questions I have about uh, being a comic is -- or maybe you can explain this to me -- how come I can listen to a set, I can laugh my ass off, it's so funny, and about two minutes later, I can't remember a single thing that was said during that show. Why is that?

 

TIM: I mean, that's -- that's the key. I mean, it's -- it's like magic in that -- in that way. I think maybe we let you in a little bit more than magic, but you don't -- I don't know.

 

JUSTIN: So that's like me in the moment, I'm in the zone with you, and like --

 

TIM: Yeah, you're in the zone. And I don't remember what I just said, yeah, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: -- it only exists in that zone. Oh, really?

 

TIM: Yeah, I mean, I think it keep -- a part of it is that, you know, there's the idea of the act. I'm -- I'm a comedian who likes the idea of the act, and I kind of expand on that a little bit. Almost like uh, I don't know, I don't wanna sound -- I'm gonna end up sounding very, uh, pretentious, so I'm not gonna say what I was gonna say.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, good. Keep going, keep going. Let's get you on -- let's get you on wax, sounding pretentious.

 

TIM: I've kind of stopped writing my set down. I think I go -- I go through waves of writing my set down before I go onstage. But what you saw was kind of me just going through -- I've done this act so many times, just kind of going through the motions of my act, and then kind of riffing on things that I felt like in a certain situation and -- and I think it's just more fun that way, for me. But afterwards, I don't even remember everything that I just said, or how -- and I -- I try to make transitions that are multi-layered. So --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can understand. I mean, at that point you know the material so well, you're kind of in a calm place and you're kind of riffing off of what the audience is giving you back, and uh, you know, one -- one of the questions I had for you as I was preparing the show and you know, I -- I could feel sensitive asking this, but I think the -- the subject of your humor touched on race a little bit while we were together. So you were at the show in Brooklyn, and there was an audience, I would say, predominantly white, at that audience. And you had all of us talk about personally, as a black man, was that right?

 

TIM: That's right, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You -- you had us all saying that out loud. And somehow, we all thought this was the funniest thing we'd ever done in our lives. But -- but tell me a little bit about like, what are you going for with that, or what are you thinking, how does -- how do you approach that?

 

TIM: I think the beginning of that joke was something I still laugh, uh, and think about in high school, which was like what if in the middle of this test everybody's quiet, I just stood up and I said, "I am an African American and I am proud." You know? Cause it's -- it's this idea of power, I mean...35:01 black people have been the underdogs of American history for so long, but because of that, there's also this like, great power, too. And I think as a young black kid, like, learning the dynamics of -- of that, are -- is -- is interesting. And with my comedy, I try to bring people into the way that I have to see race. Or like, or bringing people into the conversation of race. So I try not to dictate things to the audience, but I think audience members sometimes are not used to having to look at things from a certain perspective. So...and I have this sort of palate -- like, this face that you can add any emotion to, you know? And I'm aware of that. And so I try to have this voice that's calming, and I'm aware of the power of that, too, so I try to ease people into these things where like, how did I even get here?

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, you do have a nice bedside manner, I will say, as a -- as a comic. You know, I -- you feel very comfortable, you feel safe in some way up there, just the -- you've got a very calming voice. Now, um, I thought you had a great opening joke when -- when I was out there last weekend. Do you remember that joke?

 

TIM: Did I get up there and say, "Where did I lose you?" Cause that's something I --

 

JUSTIN: No, you were talking about -- you said something to the effect, and again I can't remember it, but it's something to the effect of, have you ever had such a great day? Do you know that joke?

 

TIM: Oh, have you ever -- have you ever -- have you ever had so much fun you thought you were white for a second? Yeah. My favorite jokes are questions. And I think that kind of sums things up in a way, too, of like...it's a way that I have to exist a little bit too, is just like balancing my fun from reality.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right, right. Now, I mean, is that -- is race an important part of giving you your humor, or something that you like to try and -- it's something you're breaking down, or it's something you just -- what -- what is it for you?

 

TIM: For me, I mean, um, it's something that I think about all the time, and I think that's the most important thing for comics to focus their material on. I mean, it's -- it's just -- for me, it even just gets down to math. Like, people laugh harder at the jokes about race. People like the jokes on Facebook that have to do with race more than the other ones. I mean, if those are the jokes that are working for you, why wouldn't you deal in that realm? It's like, people are telling you to do this.

 

JUSTIN: But do you feel like that's because it's coming from a place that you're -- you're coming from a place of strength, or playing to your strengths, or --

 

TIM: I think it's -- I think it's playing to my strengths, and I think I find a -- a unique angle on it. And it is sort of -- I think most comedy comes from anxiety, even if you think about -- like if you think about Jewish humor, the idea of Jewish humor, it has to do -- that is just racial anxiety. So my comedy comes from -- also comes from racial anxiety.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Now, tell me -- how do you -- do you write jokes? Do you sit at the table with a notepad and write a joke? How do you write a joke?

 

TIM: My jokes have always been conversational. Like, before I even started doing standup. And I think most comedians are, um, and I don't want this to be seen -- maybe it is negative, but are manipulative in a way. Comedians like repetition, they like testing out things. They like -- they're meticulous, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like, they'd rather go into a conversation with a pre-planned bit because they -- maybe they don't like conversations. So that was kind of the person I was. Like, I would -- if I was at a party, I hate -- I hate small talk, and so I would try to find ways to entertain myself, but I'd also try to see if -- if I say this thing, does it always get a laugh? So when people ask me where I was from, before I ever did standup, I would say, I'm from African America. And say it very casually. And wait for the delayed laugh.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, do -- should I laugh? Is -- is he joking? I don't know.

 

TIM: Yeah, just throw -- yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, I haven't heard of -- what?

 

TIM: And so I've always gotten a -- a joy out of that. And so I've just translated that onto the stage. So I like my set to seem very much like I'm having a conversation with the audience. I like making my audience feel comfortable, and then also very uncomfortable, and then comfortable again.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, you -- you do really have them on a string there for a little while. Um, but -- but tell me, you know, being a comic, you're -- you're kind of living off of the adulation or the laughter or the applause of this audience, and it can be a real high. There's no high like a high of people adoring you. But you know, you get off stage, and you walk around the corner, and you get on the bus, or you drive home and you're by yourself, and I think that's where a lot of comics or actors or other people that live off of other people needing to tell them how good they are, can get into trouble with drugs or drinking or chasing that other high. Does -- does that make sense, or --?

 

TIM: I think -- I think that's true. I think um, I think it's very important to balance a real life with comedy. And that's why I really like my relationship with my girlfriend. I think, I mean --

 

JUSTIN: Does she think you're funny?

 

TIM: 40:00 I -- I think she started off thinking I was funny and then it's kinda disappeared. But I kinda like the uh, I like the challenge of balancing a normal life with my comedy life. Because I see a lot of -- there're a lot of unhappy comedians. Um, but the balancing act is what -- is what I like.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: Like, I don't think there's an answer, and I don't -- you know, you can dive deeper into one or the other, but I like trying to balance it.

 

JUSTIN: But it sounds like you're aware of even trying to keep a balance. Cause I think some people, you could get so high off of the adulation of, everyone's going crazy for me, I'm amazing, and then you could feel really lonely the next day when you wake up at 11 o'clock and check your email, and no one's emailed you, and it's discouraging, right?

 

TIM: I guess it's just based off the email but then it is like, yeah. I mean the dream is to have shows all the time. And so there is a sort of -- you wake up the next day and it's just nothing that day compares to -- and then no one knows what you did yesterday.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

TIM: So you do kinda chase that high a little bit.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Now, how do you kind of work new material? Do you go out, you say new material, not a single person laughs, and you just drop that from the bit? Or you keep working it? You know, you hear about people working stuff. Working the humor.

 

TIM: Yeah. I like to work new material into show -- show sets, actually. I mean, open mics are good for -- to get used to saying a new bit. But you don't know where the laughs are gonna come, cause comedians laugh at different things than audiences do.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TIM: And it's -- you feel more alive in your set at a show when you're adding something new in there. Cause sometimes you get so bored with your material that like -- I remember a couple times I started yawning in the middle of my set. Um, because of -- and it's -- I still got all the intended laughs, but I was just so bored with myself that...

 

JUSTIN: Oh, it's time to get some new jokes at that point. Your girlfriend's looking across from you from dinner just laughing. She's like, I've heard that one already, Tim. My dad's still telling the same jokes he's been telling for -- I'm 38, he's been telling them for 38 years. I'm like, get some new lines. But anyway, whenever we have a guest to the dinner table, he's always like, this is gold, I'm gonna use all my best material.

 

TIM: But that's true. That is exactly what it's like to be a comedian. I mean, yeah, you don't necessarily want people to go to like, multiple -- you want different people at every show. You know, you don't -- it's just like magic in that way. For like, if you watch the same magic act every --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, fascinating. Fascinating.

 

TIM: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Cause I -- I kind of grew up -- didn't grow up, but I -- I played in a band, and you played shows, and inevitably 90 percent of the audience is people you've seen at the last show. But you're saying actually it's nice to have a fresh -- fresh crowd so that you seem totally original.

 

TIM: Yeah. And you want anonymity from them. You know? That's like -- that's why I like the ideal setup in a theater or whatever, is when the lights are on you, and you can't see a single face. You just want this to be this anonymous --

 

JUSTIN: I never thought of that.

 

TIM: -- void out there.

 

JUSTIN: I've never thought of that. Okay. Wow. Um, alright, well look. Rob's kinda giving me the stink eyes if we're going over time here. So let me just uh, hand it over to you Tim, I want you to talk a little bit about where can people catch you. Now, keep in mind, this episode's gonna come out in September. So where can they catch you in general, talk about your podcast, like give us the whole spiel. If you wanna give people your email address and have them crank -- crank email you, you know, whatever you wanna do.

 

TIM: Uh, any information you want on me you can find at timbarnescomedy.com. Uh, my podcast, It's All True! uh, I release new episodes every Thursday. And you can find it anywhere you look for podcasts. Soundcloud, iTunes, acast, Google Play, all that stuff. Uh, my Twitter handle's Tim Barnes451, that's the temperature at which jokes burn. And um -- (laughs) --

 

JUSTIN: I thought it was the San Francisco area code.

 

TIM: And uh, I just want you to know that I believe in you.

 

JUSTIN: Um, well listen, that was the Mr. Corpo podcast. That was the end of Season 1. I think we took it out with a bang. And uh, as always, catch us on the social channels. Twitter is Mr_Corpo, or Instagram, I made it through the whole season keeping a horrible handle name: JDKJDKJDKJDK. That's four JDK's in a row. So without further ado, the end of Season 1. And stay tuned for Season 2, coming to a podcast near you.

 

Oh my gosh, I almost forgot to thank my good, almost great, awesome, not quite super awesome producer, Rob Schulte. Actually, I take all that back. He's super awesome and he's great. And of course, I always like to leave you with a song. In this case, I'm gonna end Season 1 by sharing with you a super secret track. Not everybody knows I used to be a rapper. My rap name was MClater. It's cause I wore a calculator watch, and then I shortened it to MClater. And then I realized the name MClater kinda sounds like, I'm gonna see you later, after the club, girl. 45:00 And so it's kinda plays on multiple levels. But this is a song that I rapped on with the producer Peter Gavin, from Moped. There's two of us on this rap song, you'll recognize me because I have a famous line of one of the great non sequiturs of all time, "India and Pakistan, they're at war. I have to be honest I don't know what for. Both of these countries, they are nuclear powers. Dining at Shalomar takes less than an hour." Shalomar was our local Indian restaurant. So without further ado, it's a non-issue.

 

(song)

 

50:35