MR CORPO PODCAST

The less money you make - the happier you are? Sounds counter-intuitive but our special (foreign) guest Tom Tobia comes on the MR CORPO podcast to talk about his strange ideas about purposefully making less money so you can be more happy. If you are someone who is trying to figure out what to do with your life - and trying to figure our how you get from here (boring corpo blah blah job) to there (your ideal life) - you should listen to this podcast and get a blank piece of paper - Tom will tell you everything else you need to do. BONUS SECTION talks about how to identify, invent, and maximize your free time. Tom Tobia is the founder of award winning start-up Makerversity in London and Amsterdam, as well as a trustee, advisor, and professor in Sheffield, England. (Consider yourself warned - he talks about Nobel Prize Winners and System of Thinking - so pay close attention or you are likely to miss something).

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

How To Make As Little As Possible

JUSTIN: It's like the more money we come across, the more problems we see. B-I-G, P-O-P-P-A, no info for the DEA...

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today's episode is "How to Make as Little Money as Possible." And I am really excited to announce that we have our first foreign guest on the Mr. Corpo podcast. Yes, we are going global. In case you're wondering, we did have a guest whose name was Jason Poland, but it turns out he's actually American. So that was -- he was not from Poland, it turns out. So our first guest from across the pond, Tom Tobia. Am I saying that right?

 

TOM: Yeah, that's pretty good. I'm good with that.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Now, Rob, do we have some kind of filter so that people can understand Tom's accent? I know the ladies are gonna go crazy for this episode, because everybody loves a British accent.

 

TOM: I can translate tomato and things like that, but I'll say...

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, as much as possible.

 

TOM: Okay, no worries.

 

JUSTIN: Um, so let me just give a brief intro of Tom, and then we'll get to the episode and figure out how do you make as little money as possible. So, Tom is kind of a do-everything, done-everything, doing-everything, does-a-million-things kind of guy. He started Makerversity, which is based in London and also in Amsterdam. And it is basically a shop that allows makers to come together and incubate new ideas, startups, come together and talk. It's about the people, and also facilitating the making. He's also a trustee at Meanwhile Foundation. I have to say, whenever you can say you're a trustee, it sounds important. Also, I noticed you're an advisor to several startups. That also is very impressive. You get trustee on your resume, advisor. I'm almost intimidated, sitting here with you. (Tom laughs) Um, you're building your own house in Sheffield. You've had a couple startups. You've taught at Sheffield University. And uh, anything I missed on that?

 

TOM: No, that's pretty much it, I think. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. That's a good start. But uh, without further ado, let's jump into it. We're gonna talk about how to make as little money as possible. And this idea came from you. This was your topic. So tell me, tell our listeners, where do we start? Where should we jump into this topic?

 

TOM: I guess it's a counterintuitive topic in many senses. Um, most people thing about the exact opposite. Um, and sometimes that can lead to making decisions that maybe aren't necessarily pragmatic. So I've always been interested in how you can create enough space in your life, enough runway in your business, to develop whatever it is that you wanna do, whether that's side projects, whether it's a startup that you have an idea for. Or whether it's simply just making sure you have enough time for hobbies. And one of the ways of doing that is to earn loads of money really fast. And another way, potentially, I suppose, is to -- is to try and earn as little as possible. Work out what it is that you need, and uh, rather than earning as little as possible in terms of an hourly rate, just figure out what you need to live, and then how you need to get there. So --

 

JUSTIN: So, so let me stop you there for a second, because I think you said a lot of different stuff there. But the first step to me, it seems, is breaking the paradigm and the social structures and the pressures and the peer pressure and the parental pressure of, "What is success?" Because what people think is successful is bigger titles, bigger offices, more money. This is what people -- when you say, "I got promoted," people say, "Congratulations." When you get a bigger title on your job, people say, "Wow, he's successful. Wow, she's really doing great." So the first step, it seems to me, is let go of that peer pressure. Now, do you have any advice for that? Cause that in itself is a real danger. Or, how do we look at that in a different way, in terms of what people expect of us versus maybe, might be different from what we actually want?

 

TOM: It's a good question. And I think it's a really hard thing to do, and there's no two ways about that. Um, probably the best example I can give is that uh, when I started Makerversity, lots of people looked to what I was doing and asked me how I was doing it, how I knew what I was doing. And I found, the more that I told people that I had no idea I was doing, the better they responded. And so I started to think about why that was, and get into it more. And so realizing that if you can tell people everything you don't know, then they listen to you when you say you do know something.

 

JUSTIN: Mm, fascinating.

 

TOM: And that kind of reverse psychology, I think, also can work for earning status, etcetera. If you're comfortable in telling people, if you can feel comfortable in yourself, and comfortable telling people, "Listen, I've decided to step off this treadmill," you know --

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM: Um, then people tend to respond to that in a very interesting way. Because it makes them immediately reflect their own choices.

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM: Um, but you do have to start with --

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM -- taking that 05:01 leap yourself, I suppose, and saying, "Okay, I'm not going to necessarily follow this path.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, so alright. So we've acknowledged that there's gonna be different peer pressures going on. But let's assume we find our way through that. And we're -- let's say we don't even find our way through it, but we're thinking about, how to I make a change in my life? Cause I think this topic is gonna be relevant for people that might be stuck in a job, might be doing a job that they're happy with, but they might know there's something else they'd rather be doing, or there's another passion they'd like to spend more time and energy on. But most people end that thought process or that conversation at the point of, "But I could never make any money." Or, "I couldn't make as much money as I make now."

 

So I think that's what enters into this idea of, how little money can you make to still live well, um, and be happy and fruitful in your life? And I think that gets us to our topic, which is this counterintuitive way of: don't try and define the future by what you know now. Re-define the future. And I think what I hear from you saying is, build up from the bottom, right? So in some ways, what is the least amount of money that you can make, that you need to -- should we be talking about what you need to make to survive? Do we have to pick a number that we should make? How do we approach it?

 

TOM: I think you do need to make some money, right? And so what that level of money will be for different people is hugely different, depending on your circumstances, the number of dependents you have, things like that. Um, and so I don't necessarily think picking a number is helpful. But I think it is very helpful to kind of appraise your -- the things you enjoy in life --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay.

 

TOM: Um, so I can go into that a bit more in a second, around the, sort of, five things that I've been thinking about. Having lived in Portland, Oregon for a couple of years, and then deciding to move back to the UK, that created an opportunity for me to do that. Um, and the one other thing I think is kind of interesting is, we are talking about starting from the bottom here. But if you think about starting from the top for a second, um, Angus Deaton and Daniel Kahneman, who won a Nobel Prize for Economics a couple of years ago, for a piece of work around earnings, relating to happiness. Their work, which won them the Nobel Prize, talked about the fact that happiness and earnings stop being intertwined at 75,000 bucks a year. That's quite a lot of money to a lot of people, right?

 

JUSTIN: Fascinating, yeah, yeah.

 

TOM: It's a lot of money to a lot of people. But really it's not as much as you would necessarily think. So once you get past that point, their research said, you are no longer any happier if you earn more than that.

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM: And so that's a kind of piece of evidential work that suggests that this is not complete madness, basically.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay.

 

TOM: And if you think that 75,000 bucks is an amount of money that in a large city like New York, will get you so far but not everywhere. But if you're living in Nebraska, or Sheffield, as we do, then it's a lot of money. It's enough to get by.

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM: Um, that's just -- it's a fascinating...

 

JUSTIN: So let me just kind of touch on that. I was thinking, in preparing for today's podcast, I was thinking, "When I got out of college, I made 40,000 dollars. And I made 40,000 dollars, and at the end of one year, I think I had 990 dollars in my bank account. And I look back -- I look back on it now, and in the moment, I was as happy as could be. I could do everything I want, I could buy dinner, I could buy as many drinks -- and my gosh, did I drink a lot back then -- um, I could take vacations, I could buy clothes, I could do anything. And at the end of the year, I had a thousand dollars. And I thought, "This is great." Okay, I'm paying a thousand dollars rent a month, you know, and I'm making 40,000 dollars. So that was happiness for me. And so what I'm hearing you say is, then, as you keep going, there's a certain threshold, let's say, use this example, of 75,000 dollars. You get up to there, each amount you're making up to 75 is increasing your happiness. Maybe opening possibilities. But after that, all you're really doing is maybe upgrading choices that you already have.

 

TOM: Yeah, I mean, it's just human nature, I think, to expand into any space that you are presented with, you know? Whether that's financial, spacial, you know, in terms of population growth, we see the same thing. We just can't help ourselves but fill the void. Um, and so you -- in order to break that cycle, it is a constant thing that you have to re-evaluate, I think. I don't think there's an easy answer to that. I mean, my tastes have changed same as yours. I'm sure, in the past ten years --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right. You wanna buy art, or you want a nicer jacket, or you like coffee, and now you're a coffee snob. And now it's 6 dollars a cup. But let me go back to something you kinda mentioned off the cuff there, which is, where you live has an incredibly powerful impact on how much money you need in order to be well, and take care of your basic needs. So you've lived in London, you said you've moved out to Sheffield. Tell me, why did you move out to Sheffield? What was the tradeoff there?

 

TOM: So, after being in London for a decade or so, working, um, I made the move with my partner to Portland, Oregon, for 10:02 a while. Um, largely for a change of scene. And --

 

JUSTIN: Portland's super boring, by the way. Do you agree with that? Are you bored with Portland?

 

TOM: Well, I really -- l love the outdoors. So -- and I have lots of friends in Portland, so I should probably say that I don't find it boring. But --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, he secretly agrees with me. Okay. That's why you moved back, right? Okay, that's a side topic. But keep going.

 

TOM: Um, and I guess that threw up -- Portland's a very different place to London, and it threw up a lot of things.

 

JUSTIN: No kidding. Okay.

 

TOM: Um, lots of things sort of that we hadn't lived in or around before. Things like proximity to the outdoors, for example, was something that was -- that's the, one of the great sides of Portland, and Oregon in general, is the wilderness on your doorstep. And so when it came to moving back, uh, I think we'd got used to the space. And also the freedom that having -- that having less overheads gives you, I suppose. So when you say, "Portland's boring," it's a -- it's an interesting thing, because if you're happy to make your own fun, then it's the most fun, because there are no pressures on you, right?

 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay.

 

TOM: So, when we came to move back to the UK --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, fascinating. I see what you did there.

 

TOM: Yeah, we were thinking, okay, we could go back to London, saddle ourselves with a mortgage that means we're gonna be chained to whatever it is for the next 20 years, bring our kids up with no backyard, you know, that kind of thing, right? Um, or we could try and find somewhere where we can access that stuff quite easily. And the UK, as you know, is not the same size as the US, so it's much more easy to find somewhere that's a bit further away but still within a couple of hours reach.

 

JUSTIN: So it's fascinating. I mean, right there you just gave an insight. It's like, hey, you don't have to live in New York City, you don't have to live in London, you don't have to live in San Francisco to make your life, if you don't want to.

 

TOM: No.

 

JUSTIN: And it again, it's gonna depend on what's important to you, what type of person you are. But especially in today's world, when you can work from a computer, work remotely, the idea of paying 1000 dollars rent, or 1000 dollar mortgage, versus an 8000 dollar rent because you want to be in the middle of downtown New York City -- that changes everything right from the start, right?

 

TOM: It does, yeah. And that -- this is one of those things that when you're talking about -- when you're talking about peer pressure or social pressure, um, being able to justify in your own mind and feel comfortable with your post code, or your zip code not being what it might be --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

TOM: -- and what that says to people about who you are, then very quickly you can see past some of the decisions that you make with real blinkers on about stuff like that, potentially. And so something that sounds a bit more pragmatic. And I'm not suggesting for a second that my lifestyle or the choices I've made are particularly dramatic -- I mean, I live two hours from London now, in a city about the size of Portland, about 600,000 people. I go to -- I can go to London or Amsterdam for work in a day, either of them. Um, but we have just bought a four-bedroom house for something -- you couldn't buy a garage in London for the same price, you know, literally.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

TOM: It's crazy. So um --

 

JUSTIN: Now what are people gonna say about, okay, yeah, maybe you can move to Sheffield because your job lets you move to Sheffield. Now, what do you have to say to people that might not be able to work remotely or independently? Do you have any thoughts on that? Or...

 

TOM: I think it's difficult. And um, it's really important to say that all of this and all of my choices and the things that I'm saying come through the lens of like, a highly middle class upbringing, with like absolute social mobility and so that definitely has affected my ability to make these choices from the word "go." Reflecting on your -- what the things are, say, the top three or top five things that you want from life helps, possibly, to do that. Um, so for me, I guess, the best way I can describe it is to talk about what those choices are for me.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, please. No, I -- and let me just say, I think it's interesting. So the place to start if you're just -- if you're getting into this topic and you're wondering, where do I even start about doing what I want with my life, and this idea of what -- how much money do I need to make a living...get out a blank piece of paper and, you're saying, write down those one to two to three to four to five things that are the most important to you. Is that right?

 

TOM: I would say definitely, yes.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TOM: So --

 

JUSTIN: And in your case, what did that look like for you?

 

TOM: So for us, uh, we had the opportunity in our life to do that, where we were moving continents, and so it becomes a very stark choice. And so that kind of forced the issue more than anything. And the five things were, the ability to raise children in a place where we have enough space to do that. Wanting to be outdoors, and active in the outdoors. So being in a place where, you know, outdoor sports are possible. And to be within sensible reach of family, business -- so for both of us, me and my partner, that's -- that's London. And Amsterdam as well. To wanting to be near other cultures' foods, and be near the arts. So culture with a sort of capital C as well as a small c. Um, and then wanting space and time to try new things, and build new projects.

 

JUSTIN: So we've sat down, we've made this list. I think it's interesting even as a starting place. Most of the time we never sit and make a list to actually 15:04 figure out what is most important to you. You know, I'm thinking about -- my list would be, I like to sit by the pool in the sun. I want to write books. And I think art and culture is important to me, but having said that, it's not like I use it all the time. I just like to know that it's there, or that there's the possibility of it being there. So I think it starts to open up where and when and how you can live. Um, so that's interesting. Okay.

 

TOM: So looking at those five things for me, I mean, most of them have very little to do with spending of money, in a big way or in an irregular way.

 

JUSTIN: So let me ask you this question, though. Is this -- is the idea of figuring out how little money you can make, is it connected to getting the big decisions right, such as where you live and what you do for a living, or do you think there's equal weight in the small choices that we make, so for example, if I lived in London, and I'm buying six dollar coffees instead of one dollar coffees, or I'm drinking at the pub, versus I'm drinking at home. Is it just about getting the big ones right and then forget the little ones, or what do you think?

 

TOM: I think you can go either way. So, uh, a friend of mine who has been working in London for the last 15 years made a decision on his first day of work that he would save 50 percent of every single paycheck that he's got. And he's done that ever since. He's just said, right, you know, I'm not earning loads but I'm gonna put away 50 percent. 15 years later, he is sitting on a serious amount of cash, right?

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh, yeah.

 

TOM: And so he's made the decision to live and work in London, that's what he wants to do. But he's gonna live quite frugally there. And then that allows him later in life to expand into the lifestyle that he wants, within the city he wants to be. Um, I'm a total sucker for the small things. I like my craft ale, I like my nice coffee. And so I guess I've gone the other way and said, right, well, where can I be in the world that allows me to have a six dollar coffee and a ten dollar beer whenever I want one? But I'm not so fussed about being in the center of London.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

TOM: So it works both ways, potentially.

 

JUSTIN: Let me -- you just -- I want to pick up on something that you said there, which is, you talk about your friend who is sacrificing now, they're on a budget so that in the future they can have a richer life, or they've got all this money saved up, and it hits on a key point which is: there's a little amount of money you can make to live today, and live tomorrow, and live this month, and live this year. But how much should retirement play into this? How much is this idea of, well, crap, I gotta be making money cause when I get older I'm not going to be able to make money. So, do people need to be thinking about retirement right now, in their 20s and their 30s, when we think about this question of, how little money can I make and still be living well?

 

TOM: They probably should. And I probably should.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TOM: I think it's so hard to envision yourself in 40, 50 years time, you know. And I think there are probably two key things around that. So one is that pretty much anything that you do with your money now may or may not work out for you in 50 years time. I mean, we've seen private pensions crash, property prices crash. Whatever you do with it, there's no guarantees around it. And that leads onto the other side of things, which I think is really interesting about buying yourself free space and free time to do things that you love, is that, why bother retiring if you're doing something that you love? If you look at most sort of iconic artists or architects or people who are really doing the things that they love, they never retire.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

TOM: Um, and so I'm not sure that I want to retire. I might not want to go into an office, or something, every day. But I'm planning on spending the next 30 years figuring out the things I can do, monetizing them in some way, so that I can keep doing them for as long as I want.

 

JUSTIN: Well, I think it hits on the idea of, if you're doing what you love, it's not work, right?

 

TOM: Right, exactly.

 

JUSTIN: Um, I think the other part for me is, I have this kind of controversial theory that the problem with life is, life is too long. Right? People say life is too short. My whole idea is, life is too long. Because -- let me use this as a different example. If you told me, Justin, you're only gonna live until the age of 60, wouldn't that change every single one of my choices, and what does that mean that it changes every one of my choices? Or, what if you told me, Justin, you can decide now how long you're going to live? So what if I said, I only want to live until I'm 55, and then I lived my life according to the fact of, okay, I've only got 16 more years, what am I gonna do with them? And if you think about it, there's a very powerful thread within that of, hey, take advantage of the time when you're your most active, when life is maybe the most rich and full of possibilities. But it's the fact that we don't know when we're going to die, it's the fact that we might actually have to live until we're 100, which gets in the way of my 20s and 30s being 20:01 the most fun possible.

 

So this leads me to my question to you, Tom, are you in favor of euthanasia to help with world population problems, which is, everyone only lives until they're 60 or 70 or whatever the age may be, we can all argue about it. But what if we all just signed up for a certain number of years? What do you think?

 

TOM: I think this escalated quickly.

 

JUSTIN: My wife hates when I talk about this topic. But I actually think it's quite rich, this idea of if I knew how long I was gonna live, then I know what I have to be prepared for, or I don't have to spend all my time working in an office because maybe I'm gonna be 80 and I need to pay for my little, you know, place where I'm living when I can't work.

 

TOM: Sure. There is something very interesting in, you know, spending your money till it runs out and then just saying, right, now's my time, guys. You know? Because I guess nobody knows what it's gonna feel like to be 65, 75, 85. And you see people who just get tired of it, right? And then we sort of artificially prop them up in some weird way and tell them that, you know, they're gonna have huge medical bills cause of this, that, and the other. And saddled with debt. So yeah, I'm on board with that.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, we'd better change this topic, cause we just totally started a new podcast there on encouraging people to not live that long. So um, so alright, we talked about the big questions of: figure out what's most important to you and then make decisions based off of that. Um, small choices can add up, I think, is something that we talked about. Um, what else? Other pieces, other branches off of this tree?

 

TOM: I think we covered quite well the kind of property thing. You know, that is the biggest decision, the biggest outgoing, you're ever going to make in your life. And also probably the one that you make with your heart more than your head. I had one year living in a factory in East London where I earned 9000 pounds in 12 months, where I was just experimenting with new things, trying stuff out...

 

JUSTIN: How did you spend 9000 dollars in 12 months? Did you pay rent? Was any of that rent?

 

TOM: Yeah, a very small amount was rent. So I moved into a factory unit with a bunch of other people in Hackney Wick, which is kind of a, heart of East --

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. How much was rent? I want to make this real.

 

TOM: So, rent there, I think, was 250 pounds a month. All in.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Alright. So we're talking about 2500 of your 9000. You see how I did that quick math?

 

TOM: Very good.

 

JUSTIN: Okay? Now you've got 6500 pounds to spend for the rest. So let's say that's -- how much is that? That's 500 pounds a month, that you've got to spend. How did you spend it the rest of the -- each month you had 500 pounds. What did that go towards?

 

TOM: Cans of beer from the shop.

 

JUSTIN: Cans of beer, yep. Probably.

 

TOM: Um, we used to collectivize some of our cash -- there were about 40 or 50 people living in different places in this factory --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, you're a communist. A socialist? A communist?

 

TOM: (laughs) Definitely neither. But we used to pool some of our money to buy things like uh, a hawk roast once a month, and things like that. So we made our own fun by doing things like that, I suppose.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, interesting.

 

TOM: And that would work out like, you know, three bucks a person.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating.

 

TOM: But you could create a party around it. So -- and I'm not saying that I'd want to do that forever, but I was -- I've never been more experimental in my way than I was then. I've never been surrounded by more people that I liked than then. And I wouldn't want to earn that little forever, but it was very interesting for a year, and I loved it.

 

JUSTIN: I love it. I think it's a great story, and I feel like ultimately for us as humans, and as worker bees, and whatever, it comes down to, we actually enjoy being put within certain confines. Or having rules, or having budgets. And it's as simple as making a budget and saying, this is how much money I'm going to spend on this, and then that allows me to have these other things. These other freedoms, these other tradeoffs. And so don't be afraid to put a little box around yourself and say, "I'm gonna try and live within this means because it's gonna open up these other ideas." So that's -- so that's something for people to take away. Um, you know what I'd like to do now is move us over to the bonus section, if that's alright with you.

 

TOM: Cool. Sure.

 

JUSTIN: Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on Tom, say something! Bonus section!

 

TOM: Bonus section!

 

JUSTIN: Yay! Bonus section, with a British accent.

 

TOM: Bonus section.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, there you go. Alright, now, today's bonus section, I'd like to talk about: how do you use free time to work on things that interest you? So we've talked about this big topic today, about you know what, what do you do, how do you make as little money as possible and still live well. So you're making these different choices. But let's talk specifically about how to use free time.

 

TOM: I'm gonna start by throwing two names at you and your lovely listeners, who will really help with this, I think.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TOM: So, one of them is a guy called BJ Fogg. And he has done a lot of work around how you can train yourself to be productive in your spare time. And the other guy I mentioned before is Daniel Kahneman. And he's a fascinating fellow, and Nobel Prize winner, as I said. And he's talked a lot about the 25:00 two systems of thinking that your brain is capable of, system one, system two. One of them being very practical and pragmatic, and the other one being extremely experimental.

 

JUSTIN: Make it real for me and the listeners. So what does it mean -- I thought we were gonna talk about turn off the TV at 7pm. So -- but make it real for me. What does it mean in terms of maximizing, using your free time and doing things that you're passionate about?

 

TOM: I think there are things that everybody does because they feel like they should do them, right? You know --

 

JUSTIN: For example...

 

TOM: For example, uh, I should watch this soap opera that all my friends watch. I should read rather than doing this, because reading's good for you, right?

 

JUSTIN: Or everyone said, let's go out to the pub, that's just what we do. And then I do that three nights a week, and I drink seven beers, cause -- I didn't really want seven, but everyone else did so I did. Is that good?

 

TOM: Exactly right. That's a perfect example.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

TOM: And I'm as guilty of that as anybody, right? And so stopping to appraise whether anyone's really gonna die if you don't conform to that particular social norm, and the pressure that you put on yourself to do that, suddenly, in theory at least, it allows you to find a lot of free time that you didn't know you had, right?

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

TOM: And then there's the sort of, the case of how do you maximize that free time. But finding it is the first bit.

 

JUSTIN: Well let me just take a slightly different approach to this, because I think for me, a lot of people have things they want to do. They have things they're interested in, but they think, I just don't have time. Oh, I gotta work. And I gotta do these things. For me, I would want everyone to understand: there is a ton of free time in your day and your week that you just don't realize is there. And it's because you're filling it with these assumptions and social pressures to fill these things. But you've gotta start from: what are you passionate about? What would you like to spend more time on? And then challenge every other place that you spend time, not on that. And you can whittle it down. If you don't drink for 30 days, all of a sudden you can wake up earlier in the morning. You have time at night. You have all these other things, right? Is this kind of an example?

 

TOM: That's a very good example. It's a good job you're here, I'll tell you. Yeah, no, that's very true. And I think that's very closely aligned to the stuff we were talking about before, about the -- you know, how much money you spend on things. Because if you can break your life even further away from the nine to five, then you're gonna find yourself with some serious chunks of more free time as well. So there's the kind of, uh, evaluating what you can do within your -- the confines that you currently exist. And then there's looking at how can I create new space as well. So again, just going back my partner, she now works three days a week, because we're in a place, in a space, where we can afford to do that. So she has two days a week, plus the weekend, obviously, to do what she wants, right?

 

JUSTIN: I love that. I'm -- actually, this is one of the things I hope to change about society in the next ten years, as a personal, kind of like, crusade. Why is it a five-day work week? Like, who decided, why is that the case? We could all get our work done in four days if anyone asked us to. But by the way, what you talked about is interesting, which is: making a life choice, or making a proposal to say, you can go into your office, and I'm thinking of doing this, and say, "I'm only gonna work four days a week. I'm gonna get everything done" -- or, guess what? "Give me 20 percent less pay, and I will only work four days a week."

 

TOM: Quickest way to do it.

 

JUSTIN: And then all of a sudden, you've got three-day weekends. All of a sudden, you've got one day that's dedicated just to whatever it is you want. I think it's really about prioritizing, making a choice. And those type of things.

 

TOM: Absolutely. Coming back to your point about the five-day week, I couldn't agree more. It's uh, it's something that's strange. I mean, throughout history, we've reduced our working week to the limits of possibility. So, seven days a week when we had to hunt.

 

JUSTIN: Right, when you're a farmer.

 

TOM: Exactly, right? Down to six days a week when we could afford Sunday off. And this is kind of the first point in history where there seems to be more social pressure to do more even though we don't need to.

 

JUSTIN: Right.

 

TOM: And people think about things like artificial intelligence, robots taking over jobs, as this terrible thing because there'll be no work. But it seems like the best thing ever, right?

 

JUSTIN: Well, but I think there's also the disappointment of robots. I think in the 1950s they said, "No one's ever gonna have to work. We're all gonna have seven days of vacation." But somehow, like you said, why did we stop at five days? Surely, if we woke up tomorrow and everyone said, "We only work four days a week and you have three day weekends," everyone would get their work done. You'd be barely any more efficient. It just means you don't waste time.

 

TOM: Sure.

 

JUSTIN: And you'd have three-day weekends. And by the way, it'd probably help all the economies cause you'd have more time to spend, and make, and start businesses. Boom! Political platform! I've got a new idea, Tom!

 

TOM: Awesome.

 

JUSTIN: Maybe you could be my running mate on this.

 

TOM: Sounds good. Can't do better than the current lot, can we?

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. (laughs) Um, let me just figure out like a couple just practical questions. You're a guy who gets a lot of stuff done. You've got a lot of different companies. You're a trustee. You're an advisor. I'm sure you could use with more time, but what is your approach to your daily activities? Do you do stuff in the morning? Do you do stuff after work? 30:03 Like, do you work late at night? What's your daily routine to maximize all the different things you're doing?

 

TOM: In an ideal scenario -- and fixing up a house is not an ideal scenario, which is what we're doing right now -- but I'm an early riser and an early sleeper. I'm hopeless.

 

JUSTIN: Preach. I love that.

 

TOM: Hopeless past 10pm.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, me too.

 

TOM: And I'm -- to be honest, I'm hopeless past 2pm, really, most of the time. So getting stuff done first thing is the way to go. And then feeling great. I think there's a -- there's a difference between getting stuff done that you have to do and getting stuff done that you want to do, as well, right? So if you get to a point in the day where you're fatigued and you've got stuff you have to do, it's very hard. If you get to that point and there are things that you want to do, you can find more energy. So...

 

JUSTIN: That's absolutely great insight by Tom right there. And I think the other thing I just want to mention, too, is: I think people need to learn and train themselves to let go of work when they leave work. Don't let the little red blinking light distract you and let you know that they're trying to call you back. Put it in your bag. Train yourself not to look at the email. Don't think about work. Don't let it take up your mental space. Because if you're willing to let go of it when you walk out the door -- and come up with your own routine. If you have to clap your hands three times, then that tells you, I'm letting go of all work and I'm not thinking about it. It's giving yourself that mental space to even imagine what the rest of your time and energy could be spent on, would be important. Agree?

 

TOM: Fantastic. Yeah. Great idea. Absolutely. And that's harder -- it's easier said than done, right? But even some -- some progressive companies are now starting to tell people to leave their work phone at work and that's it. Locking down email and stuff. And that -- I think that's a -- it's a huge step in the right direction.

 

JUSTIN: Great, okay. Anything else? I think that's it for our bonus section, but before we go, I just want to give you a chance to say anything to our listeners, send them to any of your social pages, whatever it is you might want to talk about.

 

TOM: Yeah, please do check me out on Twitter or Instagram. I'm @TomTobia. I'll make sure there's a link on the site as well.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, great.

 

TOM: And if any of you are in London or Amsterdam, or some of you on this side of the pond, are thinking about a startup or side project, reach out to Makerversity, because we're starting to build plans for over here as well. And we can give you the space and the time to do what you love.

 

JUSTIN: Fantastic, I love it. Tom, thank you for coming on the show. You raise the bar on the intellectual standards of the Mr. Corpo podcast. I will be sure to bring that bar right back down on the next episode. But I really enjoyed the conversation. I love the idea of challenging the assumptions that we have of the work-a-day world. The pressures that we have that moving up is the only way we're supposed to go. I think what Tom talked about today is, let's move outside the box. Let's create our own box, and let's create our own time and energy. So fantastic topic, look forward to having you back sometime in the future.

 

TOM: Thanks so much, that was awesome.

 

JUSTIN: Okay great, thanks. And finally, before we go, I just wanna of course thank my producer, Rob Schulte. Rob, great job. Your new haircut looks awesome. And, also want to point you to the mrcorpo.com website, because we'll have Tom's episode up there. We'll have the transcript. We'll have the links. And anything and everything else that you could possibly want. So, mrcorpo.com.

 

(music)

What do you do if someone at work hates you? MR CORPO gies a simple 3 step process on how to defuse and disarm your enemies in the workplace.

 LISTEN HERE:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 If Someone Hates You At Work

JUSTIN: I don't care what you say, you keep talking, talking every day. First you're telling stories, then you're telling lies. When the fuck are you gonna realize that I don't wanna hear it? All this bullshit, I don't wanna hear it. All this bullshit, I don't wanna hear it.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today's episode is gonna be kind of fun. We are talking about what to do if someone at work doesn't like you. You know what I'm talking about. There's always someone. There's a co-worker, a cross-functional partner on a different team. Maybe it's even your boss, maybe it's your boss's boss. The point is, there's always someone who doesn't like you. So we're gonna talk about what do you do about it.

 

Now, there's three steps. There's three things I want you to take away from this. Step one is, you need to think. Step two is, you need to talk to people. And step three is, you need to talk to the person who doesn't like you. Now, let's jump right into it and get to step one.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Think about why they don't like you. The first thing to do is to figure out who doesn't like you, and then think about why they don't like you. You have to be honest with yourself, you have to take responsibility. This isn't something where you can just blame, everything is the other person's fault. You've got to do an honest assessment of, "Did I do something to really piss this person off? Did I do something that would justify them not liking me? Is there anything I could have done that could have caused this situation?" You have to have an honest self-assessment. That's the first thing you need to do.

 

Now, there's two ways this can go. The number one way is, you know why they don't like you. It's very clear, you remember the interaction, you know exactly when you pissed them off and made them not like you. The second way this can go is, you have no idea whatsoever. It seems totally random. You've given the person no reason whatsoever to not like you, and yet they don't like you. Maybe it's personal. Maybe it's professional, maybe it's political. Maybe it's jealousy, who knows. But you have no idea.

 

Alright. Those are the two options. Now, if it's option one, you know why, then your task is easy. Now, go address it directly with the person. Whatever the situation, no matter what, you have to take responsibility for the situation. Even if it was a 50/50 responsibility, you have to decide, I am gonna take the higher ground. I am going to take responsibility for whatever has passed between us, and I'm gonna be the bigger person, so to speak.

 

So what you wanna do is, you wanna set up a quick meeting. Ask for just five minutes of their time. Now, the reason it's important to only ask for five minutes of their time is, you don't want to make this a big deal. Asking for 30 minutes of their time, they might be able to say no. But anyone, anywhere, anytime can always spare five minutes. So ask this person for five minutes. When they say why, just say, "Hey, I wanna catch up on something. I'd prefer to speak in private." There's no politicking, there's no couching, there's no excuses, just be honest.

 

Here's what I want you to say: "Something's been bothering me, and I really wanted to talk about it with you. I can sense that we're really ot on the same page, or maybe you don't even like me. But I wanted to own up to my role in all of it and see if we can work things out. I'm not sure if this is even right or wrong, but I felt like things changed when..." (dot, dot, dot.) You identify the specific situation. Then you go on to say, "I'm sorry. I'd like to move forward together, and more than that, I just wanted to sit and listen, if there's anything I can do to help solve this, or improve our situation, or our relationship." Boom. That's it.

 

You see what we did there? The first thing we did was, we were honest. We said, there's something bothering me. The second thing that you did is, you were honest again. You said, maybe you don't like me. You've taken this to an extreme. It's good to say, maybe you don't like me, so that you expanded the rubber band so far out that hey, maybe they don't like you, but even acknowledging that may be the case, everything back in between will feel less extreme than that. So it's a good thing to do. The third thing you've done is, you identified the issue, the dot, dot, dot. You've tried to take a stab at, here's what I think might have gone wrong. So you've put that out there, you've owned that. Number four, you apologized. You said, I'm sorry. You humbled yourself. The next thing that you did, number five, you listened. You offered yourself up and you said, I want to listen to you. I'm giving you a chance to talk.

 

Now, here's what's gonna happen. 05:00 One of three things in this situation. Number one, you're gonna have a genuine misunderstanding. And it's gonna be resolved, and you're gonna be nice to each other. That's the best case scenario. You confronted it, you removed the roadblock, you removed the thing that was bothering you, and now you go on with your lives and there's nothing between you. Number two, you were wrong. Maybe you thought it was this thing, but actually it was this other thing. And by giving the person an invitation to say that thing, now at least you're aware of it, number one, and number two, they got to talk about it, and now once it's out in the open, it's easy to solve anything, okay? So now they got a chance to explain it, that's to your benefit also. Now, the third thing that might happen is, you run up into a stone wall. The person says, "I don't know what you're talking about, I don't know what's going on, why are you even bringing this up, what's your problem?" Now, if it's number three, then you need to step back, you say, "Thank you for your time, I just wanted a chance to try and talk to you." And then guess what? You need to go to step two and step three, which we're about to talk about, cause that's a whole different animal that you're dealing with there, if they can't take this conversation in kind and try and help to work it out with you, okay?

 

Now, I kinda skipped ahead there, because I wanna go back to the original step one, which is thinking about what they don't like about you. We just talked about what to do if you do know why they don't like you. But what if you can't think of the specific reason that they don't like you? What if you've given them no reason to dislike you? What if they still persist in not liking you? What if you've never talked to them and they don't like you? What if you've never even looked at them and they don't like you? What then? Then, what do you do? Sometimes it can feel like they only exist to try and make you unhappy, to belittle you, to undermine you, to disagree with you. It's a really disheartening feeling.

 

If you're in this situation, it's time to proceed to step two: talk to people. Step two is simple. Talk to other people. At this point, your goal is two-fold. Number one, you want to genuinely figure out what the issue might be. Maybe other people around you know what it is, and you're just oblivious to it. That's your first goal. The second goal in talking to people is, you want to build your network. You want to raise visibility to your honest effort to try to figure this out. You want people to see you honestly trying to solve this issue. And you also want to claim the higher ground.

 

Okay, so here's what I want you to do. Start small, and go big. The first thing you need to do? Talk to one of your friends at work. Sure, you must have someone where that you confide in or you consider a friend. Ask your friend first, just say, "I don't know why this person hates me, but I think they hate me. What do you think?" And get a temperature check from them. Hopefully they'll be honest with you and they'll say, "You know what, I think it's cause you snort your nose every time that they're around and they really don't like people that snort their nose." Who knows? Maybe they don't like people who wear Converse shoes, and you wear converse shoes. At least you know what it is. But chances are, you may not know why they don't like you, but maybe other people do. So you talk to your friend. It's innocent to ask a co-worker and just say, "Hey, you know what, I seem to not be having a good relationship with this person. Do you have any insights? Is there something I'm doing? Is there anything you know, why they might be upset at me?"

 

After you talk to your co-worker, you wanna go talk to your boss. Bosses love to be asked for advice. It's very flattering for them, and it's also good for you. Now, I'm assuming obviously this isn't your boss who hates you. But it very well may be your boss who hates you. In that case, skip this step. But in most cases, go to your boss and say, "Hey, I'm honestly, wholeheartedly trying to figure this out. I seem to have a bad relationship with this person. Do you have any experience with this person, any advice to give me?" That's a great place to start. And again, you want to keep your boss on your side, so this is a very useful thing.

 

You also want to go talk to HR. I think those reasons would be self-evident. The goal here is, let all of those people around you, all those people who work with you, let them know that you're honestly trying to figure out what's going on. Now, remember, you have two goals: one, you're trying to figure out the issue. Does anyone else know? Hopefully one of these people has said, "Oh my gosh, yeah, that person told me they didn't like you because of X." Now, maybe that's gonna be the case. Most of the time, that's not gonna happen. So your second goal in talking to other people is claiming higher ground.

 

Now, by going around and talking to other people about your desire to have a good relationship with this person, you're accomplishing multiple benefits. The obvious one is, you're claiming high moral ground of trying to resolve the issue. Nobody can hate you for that. That's a good thing. 09:58 The second thing you're doing, which is less obvious, is you're subtly talking shit on the other person without talking shit on them. Cause here's the thing: you're genuinely just trying to solve this topic. It's not about you versus them. This is all about them. Look at the injustice of this. You're a good person, you're trying to solve this, and they won't let it be solved. This has an undermining effect on the other person, while helping you claim that higher ground.

 

Now, another less obvious thing that you're doing here is, you're raising awareness, and at the same time, you're building your network. What I mean by this is that maybe everyone else doesn't realize that the person has it out for you. Maybe they experience each criticism, or each comment that this person makes towards you as simple a counterpoint. Maybe they don't see what's really going on. But here's the thing: by making everyone aware that this person doesn't like you or they have it out for you, you're successfully re-framing the way everyone else, co-workers, bosses, HR, anyone else, you're re-framing the way that they view the person's next criticism or mean email towards you. Now, when they see that mean email or that criticism or that comment that wasn't so nice, they're gonna see it as a weak, pathetic vendetta against you. And in so doing, you've not only claimed the higher ground, you've also influenced everyone else's interpretation of the other person's comment. You are winning.

 

Now, I just went through all the benefits of talking to people, but let me take a step back and actually tell you how to talk to people. Because how you talk to people will have a make-or-break influence on how this whole thing goes. This can't be you trying to overtly rally people to your side. This will not work. You cannot approach this as, I'm building my army of supporters, and I'm openly trying to wage war against this other person. If it becomes a popularity contest between you and the other person, it just doesn't end well. Yours is a more subtle battle. And that's why these conversations have to be taken in the right way. You have to be humble, you have to take responsibility, if there's any reason you might have caused this rift, and you need to ask for advice. Be genuine. This is a human-to-human interaction, and if you're seen as trying to be manipulative or figure things out or triangulate, people aren't gonna naturally be drawn to you. So you wanna be honest, you wanna be forthcoming, that's why you want to humble yourself and ask for advice. This is a battle of hearts and minds.

 

Okay. Now, step one, you had to think about it. Step two, you had to talk about it. Step three, you have to address it directly. You have to talk about it with the person who doesn't like you. This is the moment of truth. This issue will never resolve itself if you don't address it. It will always nag at you. It's dead weight. Let it go. Get rid of it. Address the issue, address the person directly.

 

Now, the good news is, you've already gathered information and perspective from other people, so you should be feeling good. Now, as I've already mentioned, keep it simple. Ask the person for five minutes, say something's bothering you, say you wanna fix it. Say you're open to all solutions, say you're here to take responsibility, if you've done something wrong. Ask what you can do to improve the relationship. Put the ball in their court. Even by asking for the meeting, you've already won. You've already accomplished your goal.

 

But here's the thing. One of three things is gonna come of this meeting. Number one, they're gonna tell you directly something specifically that you've done that's bothered them. That's great! Even if it's a hurtful thing, even if it's something you didn't realize, even if it's something you did realize, even if it's something you don't agree with, it's great that they've told you what bothers them. Information is power. This is a great thing. Once you know what it is, you can always resolve it. I'll let you go resolve it. That's the first thing that can happen. The second thing that can happen is, maybe they aren't sure why they don't like you. Maybe even they don't realize they don't like you, but their behavior is just like that. And in this case, it's good to have talked about it, because you're getting it out in the open, and you've drawn attention to it, and you've said, "I notice." You've also said, "I'm a human being, and you've hurt my feelings. And I don't wanna live like this." And at the point of human-to-human interaction, even though it's a confrontation, they're always gonna respond positively to the idea of, you're coming to me like a human, you're coming to me, which I respect, let's talk about it. And even the biggest bullies, when you get behind closed doors, are actually pretty soft and nice on the inside. For the most part.

 

15:00 Now, the third thing that might happen, and this is the dangerous one, is: they're gonna look at you and go, "What are you talking about?" This is a full-frontal denial. When you're faced with that, that means that you're arguing with a snake in the grass. A truly, truly evil person. I mean, you've humbled yourself. You've been honest. And they can't meet you there. If that's the case, this is their problem. The team, your boss, your boss's boss, your HR, your mentor, all of those people are gonna be on your side. You've done the right thing. You've isolated this dangerous person and you've highlighted it to everyone around them that this is an issue not between you and the other person. This is an issue of that other person.

 

Now, at this point there's two things that you need to do. First, you need to quietly circle back to everyone you talked with and let them know the outcome. You know, if it's number one, you say, "Hey, just wanna let you know I talked to so-and-so, we figured it out, and I really appreciate your partnership in letting me talk with you." Everyone's gonna feel good about that, they know it's resolved, and everyone will look at you and say, "Wow, this is someone who addresses issues and is able to get over them." If it's the second one, you can also say, "Thanks for letting me talk to you. We were able to talk it through. It was some surprising new stuff, but ultimately we got to the bottom of it." If it's the third one, if it's a snake in the grass, if you're dealing with a truly, truly evil person, even then, you wanna circle back with everyone else and say, "Hey, just want to let you know, I tried to talk to this person and they just stonewalled me and said there's no issue and they didn't want to talk to me anymore, so I'm really not sure what to do, but I wanted to at least let you know where it all ended."

 

Now, what you're doing by circling back is letting everyone else know how should they feel about you, how should they feel about the other person, and how should they think of this person as they look at every future interaction between the two of you. You're basically setting up people to take sides without openly making people pick sides. That's a very important element. Now, if you try and turn this into a popularity contest, you've lost the moral high ground. This cannot be a popularity contest.

 

Alright, now, I said the first thing you do is circle back with people. That's what we just did. The second thing I want you to do? Say a prayer for this person. This person is so insecure, this person is so unhappy, this person is so pathetic, that they need to put other people down to make themselves feel good. And you know what? The next time you see them, give them your biggest smile. Laugh at whatever they say. Just a little chuckle, just a little aside, smile. Kill them with kindness. You don't fight a bully by mean-facing them. You don't fight a bully by threatening to fight them. That's the language that they talk. The way that you fight a bully is, you stand in a circle with a bunch of other people and you point at them and you start laughing. They start crying, they start running home, and you see that soft, vulnerable, pathetic, insecure person standing in front of you. So just smile, just laugh. Every mean thing they say to you from now on, you have the higher ground. And they know it. You tried to confront this issue, you tried to speak with them directly. Everyone else is aware of it. At this point, they're only digging themselves deeper. So you've won the battle, whether they realize it or not. That's everything I have to say about this topic.

 

But I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm facing this exact situation at work, and I made a huge mistake. I did not confront this person directly. Instead, I chose to say, "You know what, they're not worth my time, I don't really like this person, I'll just not be around them. I'll try and avoid them as much as possible." This has been going on for more than two years, and I can tell you, I am absolutely losing the battle. I still think about this person. That other person has been able to influence other people to now be against me, because I didn't take these steps of letting people know there seems to be some issue, for no reason I can understand. I'm losing the battle though, I didn't take my own advice. I'm kicking myself now. In fact, it's resulted in tangible things being taken away from me, or opportunities being blocked from me.

 

So don't be like me, but do take my advice. Get out there, think about why this person might not like you. Talk to other people, figure it out. And then the third thing is, talk to them directly, okay? It's as simple as that.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: But guess what? We have a bonus section today!

 

ROB: Oh, yeah.

 

JUSTIN: 19:56 Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! Bonus section. Today's bonus section comes to you from one of our listeners. I can't remember his name, maybe his name is Ben, I can't remember, but I do know it's the boyfriend of Casey. So boyfriend of Casey, this one's a shoutout to you. Now Casey, if you have more than one boyfriend, this is gonna cause a lot of problems at home, and I'm sorry for that. But boyfriend of Casey wrote to me and said, "My boss is taking the credit for all the work that I do. What do I do about this?"

 

Well, you should do the exact same thing that I just talked about in this episode. You need to sit down and think about, why is this person taking all the credit for what I do? What's behind it? Is it mean-spirited? Is the person oblivious? Or what's going on? Depending to your answer of whether you think they're doing it on purpose or they're doing it by accident, we'll determine what's going on. If you think they're doing it by accident, confront them and just say, "Hey, I just -- I can't help but feel like this. What do you think? How do we work together, right?" You wanna take the edge off of this.

 

If you think they're mean-spirited, trying to steal all the credit for everything you're doing, this is what you need to do. You need to go around and talk to everybody and say, "Hey, I'm having this experience, does anyone else feel this way, or how did you deal with this?" Cause likely other co-workers might feel the same way, and maybe one of them has a winning formula for why that person doesn't take their credit for their work. So figure out if someone else has a way to solve this. If it's your boss, talk to HR. If it's your boss's boss, talk to your boss. Talk to the different people that are surrounding this situation, and build up your network. Let them know this is something that's on your mind, and figure it out.

 

And then the third thing is, you know what? I think it is appropriate to sit down with the person and just say, "Hey, there's something that's been on my mind, and it's bothered me a little bit. I don't know if maybe I'm just being sensitive, but my feeling was, you know, I did a lot of work on that. And then at this critical moment, I felt like you jumped in and maybe, you know, took a lot of the credit for it. And I'm just wondering, you know, what can we do to make sure that this gets on equal ground?" You're going to completely disarm them. Most likely, they're going to retreat so quickly, you've never seen someone backpedal so fast. They're gonna be like, "No, no, no, that's not what I was doing! What I meant to do was this. I was just trying to say that it was important, or I did it, or things like that."

 

Whatever the reaction is, it actually doesn't matter in this case. The point is, you've put them on notice that you are paying attention, and you're gonna be watching them the next time. And guess what? Unless they are a totally evil snake in the grass person, they're gonna be way more careful, and they're gonna be way more reticent to try and steal credit for the work that you do. It's as simple as having that conversation. Yes, yes, yes, it may be a little bit awkward in that moment. Yes, you might be nervous about confronting the person. And this isn't in the hallway yelling them down. It just says, "Hey, can I have five minutes? I want to talk to you about something." You say it, you say your piece, you listen to them, whatever excuses they throw at you, get it out of the way, and then go on with your life, okay? That's how you're gonna make this happen. That's how you're gonna solve this issue.

 

Now, Casey's boyfriend, give me a call back, let me know how this goes. If you wanna record this conversation and then play it back to me, you can do that. I don't know, maybe there are some rules against recording things without people know it, but actually --

 

ROB: Well, maybe you could just let him know.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. Just tell 'em you're gonna record this for the Mr. Corpo podcast. Put the pressure on them. That's a good idea.

 

ROB: You've got nothing to hide.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. That's right. Okay. Let's do that. Well that's it for today's bonus section. I want to of course give you a shoutout. Please go to to the mrcorpo.com website. We have every episode of Mr. Corpo. We have, I think, 20 episodes now. They're all up on the website, they're all transcribed so you can print them out. You can read them while you sit on the toilet. You can print them out and mail them to someone. You can even mail them to someone anonymously, if you felt like they needed to improve something, print them out, put them in an envelope. Of course, wear latex gloves so they can't get your fingerprints, and mail it to someone. It's a great way to help someone out with their career. So go to mrcorpo.com website, of course hit us up on Twitter at Mr_Corpo, and email mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com for those anonymous questions. And otherwise, I think that's it. Rob, thanks for another great episode, as always. And onwards and upwards.

 

Oh, and by the way, I almost forgot to mention, the opening lyrics were from Minor Threat, one of my favorite punk bands of all time, by far. And the song was, "I Don't Wanna Hear It." 25:02

 

 

They walk in line - They walk in line - They walk in line. Most people and most corporations just want you to walk in line, wait your turn, and do as you are told. They do things the way they do them because that's the way they've always been done. MR CORPO explains how to break through this stasis and actually get what YOU want - because the thing is - your boss is busy, your boss' boss is worried about their own job, their own promotion, their own life - so if you are sitting at your desk waiting for someone else to give you your dream job your butt is going to get really sore. MR CORPO explains how to get your dream job and why you don't have to leave your current company in order to get it.

You just have to do 2 easy things:

(1) Decide what you want

(2) Tell other people what you want

It's that easy. Listen to this episode to get all the details and tactics so you can take control of your life and get what you want.

 LISTEN HERE:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How To Get Your Dream Job

 

JUSTIN: Full of a glory never seen, they made it through the whole machine to never question anymore hypnotic trance they never saw. They walked in line, they walked in line, they walked in line, they walked in line.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today's episode is going to be an interesting one. Maybe it's a little bit unexpected. We're going to talk about how to get your dream job at the place you already work. And you see, what's unexpected about this topic is the part that says, "At the place you already work." Because most people think if they wanna get their dream job, they have to go out and look for it somewhere else. They think they have to get their resume together, they think they have to go interview, they think they have to leave the place they're at to get what they want. But I am here today to talk about how to get your dream job at the place you already work.

 

Because here's the thing: most people and most companies just want you to walk in line. That's why I sang that song from Joy Division. They want you to do this job, stay in this role, wait your turn, get promoted, move up, straight lines. Wait your turn. I mean, look at me. I'm out of college at 21, I randomly interview at The Gap, it's my first interview, it's my first job offer, I took it. Fast forward 17 years, I'm still working in fashion. Talk about walking in line. I've walked in line. Now, I don't wanna get off topic and start complaining about my entire life, so let's get back on topic here. Let's stay focused, let's walk in line on this podcast. I wanna talk about how you can get your dream job at the place you already work. Now, if you already have your dream job, congratulations. You're basically a unicorn, and you can turn off this podcast, and I'm not gonna say I hate you. I will say I'm jealous of you. But for the rest of us, let's get to work.

 

(music)

 

Okay. There are three steps to getting your dream job at the place you already work. Number one, identify what you want. Number two, talk about it. Number three, propose it. Let's start with step one. What is your dream job? This is the hardest part of this whole process. You have to sit and quietly think. You have to consider, what do you actually want out of your life? You have to consider what makes you happy. These are not things that we like to do on a daily basis. It's easy to pull out your phone, check your Instagram, check your Twitter. You just checked it two minutes ago, let me tell you: the world didn't change. But it's not easy to avoid these distractions and actually give time and thought to: what makes me happy? What do I want to do? What brings me joy? How do I wanna live my life? That's why it's the hardest part. Cause you have to look at yourself. I want you to get this right. You've gotta get step one right, because when I go into step two and step three, here's the thing: you're actually gonna get what you want, so be careful what you wish for.

 

Let me give you some examples of things people might wish for. Maybe you always wanted to live abroad. Maybe you always wanted to work in marketing. Maybe you wish you would work from home at least one day a week so that you can send emails to your co-workers while you're sitting in your underwear. Whatever it is, decide what you want. That is the first step. The company isn't gonna magically walk up to you tomorrow and say, "Hey. That thing that you want that you haven't told anybody about? I know what it is, cause I'm a mind-reader." That's not gonna happen. Remember what I said about companies and people preferring for you to walk in line. It's a lot easier for them if you just stick in line. And guess what? Your boss is busy. Your boss is worried about their own job. Your boss is worried about their own career. Your boss is worried about their own happiness. There's no time, there's no place, there's no way that a company is set up to help you quote unquote "figure it out." You have to bring the fight to them.

 

And there's two things you need to do. Number one, you have to tell them what you want. And number two, you have to tell them why it's good for them. So that brings us to step two. It's simple: tell people what you want. That's it. It's that easy. Tell people what you want. 05:01 You're never going to get asked to move to Europe if your boss of HR doesn't know that your dream is to move to Amsterdam. Step two, it's just talking to people. I'm not even asking you to justify what you want. I'm not asking you to put a plan together. All I'm asking you to do is just tell other people that you work with what you want. You're planting the seed for future harvest.

 

Now look, I've done this twice in my career and both times it's worked out perfectly. The first time I was working at Levi's, I mentioned to my boss I would love an opportunity to live and work abroad. I had no bigger plans than that. I just said, "I would love to work abroad." I might have mentioned Europe, I don't even remember. The next thing I know, my boss comes to my desk, asks me to come into her office, and she says, "Hey Justin, we've got a chance, would you wanna go move to Tokyo for three months?" I mean, just like that, out of the clear blue sky, I woke up that morning, I had no idea my life was gonna change. But the reason it did change, the reason I did get a chance to go live abroad, the reason I did get a chance to go open a creative center in Tokyo for three months on the company's dime? It's cause I just told my boss, "Hey, I would love a chance to live abroad." And guess what happens? Conversation happen behind closed doors. People talk, ideas come and go. Someone mentioned that hey, we should open a creative studio in Japan. And guess what? My boss was sitting there and she said, "You know what? Justin mentioned he wanted to live abroad. He could be a great person to go do this." And all of a sudden, it happened. All I had to do was just say I wanted to live abroad. It was incredible. I didn't justify it, I didn't write it down. I didn't write a business plan. I just told my boss.

 

And remember what I said about planting of seeds? Well the seeds take time to grow, cause here's the thing: if my boss and the vice president and the vice president or the executive vice president had come out and said, "We're opening a position in Tokyo, who wants to go there?" All of a sudden I have a ton of competition, or I have to apply, or the job isn't even gonna happen. But the thing is, because I mentioned it early, I was at the front of the line. I was taking control. So you can take control, too. Tell them what you want.

 

Now, the second time this worked for me in my career, I can't go into the specifics for legal reasons, but I told my boss my goal one day was to run my own company. It was as simple as that. I said, "I really wanna marry the creative with the business side and I want a chance to run my own organization." Two months later, I get handed a special project and the biggest promotion of my entire life. And I can draw a direct line between that promotion and me simply saying to that boss, I want a chance to run my own company. If you tell people what you want, clearly and easily, you're giving them a chance to be a hero. Everyone wants to be a hero. Why do you think Marvel movies are so popular?

 

So now you're starting to see that getting or creating your dream job isn't as hard as you thought. The first step is deciding what you want. The second step is vocalizing it. Say it out loud. And the third step, let's move to the third step now, is a little bit more aggressive, it's a little bit more proactive, it means you have to specifically propose the job. Now, I realize most of you are gonna be too scared to do this. But for the brave few, for those of you who want to take control of your life and change its direction and actually go get your dream job, I salute you and this section is for you. And this is all you have to do. You have to write down a very simple proposal that fits on one page. It can't be two pages, it can't be three pages. It has to be one page.

 

And here's what that page looks like: there's five parts to that page. Number one, current situation. Write one to two sentences under a heading of current situation, and describe what the current situation is. Number two headline is opportunity. Write one to two sentences about what you see as the opportunity. It can't be three sentences, it can't be four, it can't be a paragraph. One or two sentences. The third heading is proposal. Now, under the proposal heading, I want you to organize yourself by bullet point. You probably should have three bullet points. Very simply, each bullet point is one sentence, and it cleanly and easily describes what is your proposal. "I want to move to Europe. I want to do this. Here's what I'm going to do." Now, the fourth headline is measurements. You've got to show the other people involved in this decision that you've thought this through and here's how you're going to measure success. 10:00 Or, here's what is going to come out of this proposal. Here's the very clear, very measurable big ideas that are gonna come from this. And then the last section, the fifth section, is a little bit more informal. The headline should be about me. And then you should write one to two sentences that best describe why you -- what's special about you, what have you accomplished, what do you want out of this, why is this your dream? That's it, so there's five sections. To run through them again, it's: describe the current situation, describe the opportunity, describe the proposal, describe how you'll measure success, and then the last one is, here's a little bit more about me, cause you wanna make this a human interaction. You wanna make people feel like they have a chance to help fulfill your dream. You're giving them a chance to be a hero.

 

Now, the whole thing about this page is, the less words the better. The more simple, the better. Your goal: make it easy for them to say yes. Most people, most companies have no imagination. It's the whole walk in line thing. They do things the way they do them because that's the way they've always been done. They're busy. They're worried about self-preservation. They're just trying to keep their nose above water. They just want to survive. Plus, to do things differently, it takes guts. It takes effort, and it's a risk. It's hard to change things. It means putting yourself out there. So you can see why it's natural for everyone to want to walk in line. They just want you to keep your head down, shut up, and walk in line. And that's why you have to do the work for them. You have to make it easy for them to say yes. That's why you have to create the proposal. That's why you have to create the measurables. That's why you're doing the work so that they don't have to.

 

Now, that's it. That is how you're gonna create your dream job, and I can guarantee you, I'm gonna say 90 percent of the time, the company's gonna say yes. Now, you better be shocked by that, cause you've been sitting in a job you don't love, you have ideas of what the company should be doing, but you sit there and you just wonder, "Why aren't they doing what I think they should be doing?" Well the reason is, cause you haven't said anything yet. So get out there and say something, okay? Now, go get your dream job and get on with your life.

 

Now, before I leave this topic, I just wanna throw a couple other things out there. Number one, the timeline. This might not happen right away. So don't think you're gonna make this proposal and the next day they're gonna say, "Hey, you're moving to Tokyo, we just decided." Remember that whole thing about planting a seed and it taking time to grow? There's no time to waste. Get it out there sooner rather than later. And even if you don't have the proposal and you don't wanna do step two, do step one. Talk about it. Just get it out there, let people know this might be something that you're interested in. You still have the right to say no. But if you don't say anything, then you can't complain, alright?

 

Now, here's the other thing I just wanna mention about this topic. You have to get in front of the right person. And the right person is gonna be different at every organization and every group. It doesn't mean it's gonna be your boss, it doesn't mean it's gonna be your boss's boss. It might mean that it's HR. It might mean that it's your mentor that you've taken on who's higher up in the organization who might have the vision or the power to actually get this idea considered by the right people. So you've gonna use networking, go back and listen to episode 18, How to Network. But figure out who's the right person that might be able to embrace this, understand it, and shoot you forward.

 

Now, you're not gonna want to go over your boss's head -- you never want to go over your boss's head -- but you can tell your boss what you're thinking and ask for their permission, or let them know you're gonna go talk to someone else about this. You don't need their permission. This is one of those things where you say, "I'm gonna go talk to this person cause I feel passionate about it." No one's gonna hate you. You're talking about what's your dream. So why does anyone wanna stand in front of your dreams? Nobody does. Make it easy for people to say yes.

 

Now, here's what's gonna happen. Number one, you're gonna hit a home run and you're gonna get the job right away. Congratulations. Number two, you've planted the seed for the future, you get people talking, you get people thinking, something good's gonna happen. Number three, you establish yourself as a change agent. All of a sudden, you're someone who can think differently. You have potential. And it may not be what you asked for, but it might be something else, because all of a sudden, you've taken initiative and shown, hey, this is someone we want on the team. They're gonna help is figure this out. Boom. You're awesome. That's all I have to say about how to create your dream job at the place you work. 15:01 Who knew it was so easy?

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Now, a few things before we wrap up today's podcast. Number one, we've been getting a ton of letters to our email, which is mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. Keep all the information coming. Some of the topics in the next few weeks are gonna come directly from listeners. So keep your ideas coming, keep your questions coming. Even the anonymous ones, I'm answering them directly for people, even if they're not gonna get on the podcast, I wanna help you out. So hit us on the social channels, hit us on -- by email, whatever you want.

 

The second thing I wanna talk about is, we're looking for sponsors for the show. If you've got a small business, if you've got a big business, if you've got no business and you just want me to say your name on air during a podcast, I'll do it. Just pay me a little bit of money and I'll say anything, I'm cheap. So if you know anyone that wants to sponsor this show, you know anyone that wants to support us, or you love what you're hearing and you just wanna Venmo us money, I'd love it. You know what? It underwrites everything that we're doing.

 

And while I'm talking about that, you know, I wanna bring everyone's attention to, hopefully you've seen, if you follow us on the social channels, I just launched a new book, it's called Mr. Corpo Podcast Book. And actually, it's a transcription of the first two seasons of the show. It's 450 pages, word-for-word, of everything that was said on this show, including two episodes that never aired, so it's got exclusive content. And here's the thing: I was really passionate. I wanted to make sure that my podcast show was available to the hearing-impaired. You can't listen to my show? I'm gonna make sure you can read about it.

 

Now, there's a lot of podcasts out there in the world. I don't know that everyone holds themselves to such a great, equal standard as we do here at the Mr. Corpo podcast. But we're doing that. We're gonna continue to do that. You go to the Mr. Corpo website, mrcorpo.com, you can read the transcripts, you can click through any of the episodes, you can find everything that you need to be great at your job. So go check out mrcorpo.com.

 

And lastly, of course the book tours continue. I will go anywhere and talk to anyone for free. Hopefully you'll buy a few books. But I love to spread the gospel about what we're trying to do here, help everyone get further faster, with more money in their pocket, at the working world. So give me a shout. Let's figure something out.

 

That's it for today's episode. Rob, as always, I acknowledge you at the end, but you are an integral part throughout the show. Thanks for being here.

 

Alright, over and out.

 

(music)

The more people know - the more people that know you - the better. MR CORPO explains why flattery will get you everywhere, why you should always ask for a 2nd date while you are still on the 1st date, and why networking is easier than you think. Set yourself a goal to meet one new person every month and before you know it you will have an army of supporters. Today's topic was requested by Noah who is stuck in Middle Management at his company in San Francisco. If you have a work question write to MR CORPO by email @ mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com or hit us on the social channels.

 LISTEN HERE: 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

How to Network

 

JUSTIN: You got to give the people...give the people what they want.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. For those of you that are not in the new, that opening salvo that shot across the bow, that was me tipping my hat to my favorite podcast, the Jalen & Jacoby show. Go check it out. It features Jalen Rose from the Fab Five from Michigan, and then a guy named Jacoby -- I don't know if it's his first name or his last name or his only name, like he's Pele. But go check that out. Today's topic comes from a listener, and that's why I picked that song. You gotta give the people what they want. And if the listeners want a specific topic, they can reach out to me, they can hit me on the social channels, they can hit me on Twitter. They can hit me on Instagram, they can hit my email at mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. And let me know what's on your mind, let me know what topics, let me know what you're struggling with.

 

But today's topic is how to network. And it comes from a listener whose name is Noah Palmer, who is firmly, firmly entrenched in middle management at a company in San Francisco. So shoutout to Noah. Let's get to work.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Today's episode is gonna have three parts: number one, what is networking? Number two, why should you network? And number three, how can you network? That's what we're going to cover today. Now, before we even get started on the topic of how to network, there's a problem. It's the word "network." It sounds like something a computer would do. It sounds complicated, and even more than that, it sounds boring. It sounds like something my dad would say or the old CFO or some other old guy would say at some generic training event. It's white noise. It's this soundbite that sounds good, but it doesn't mean anything.

 

So in answering our first question of, "what is networking", I want to replace the word "networking" with something that is a little easier to understand and maybe even a little bit less intimidating. When we're talking about networking, we're talking about talking to people. When we're talking about networking, we're talking about talking to people. It sounds like I'm repeating myself, but I'm trying to make that point clear. That's it. Networking is another way of saying, you should talk to another human being as a human being. You've heard people say, "You need to network. You need to build your network. It's good for networking." What they're really saying is, you need to talk to other people so they know who you are and you know who they are. It's as simple as that. Networking is talking to people.

 

And that brings us to part two: why you should network. The workplace is an ecosystem with thousands of moving parts and people, and while you may not always be able to see how everything is connected, trust me: everything is connected. You've heard the story of the butterfly who flaps its wings and the end result of which is a tsunami halfway around the world. Well, your office is the same. Everything and everyone is connected. Everyone is intertwined. We already know that it isn't just you and your boss who decides if you get promoted. It's your boss's boss, it's HR, it's your boss's boss's boss, it's peers, it's cross-functional partners. And here's the thing: it's also the CFO, and it's also the guy at the end of the hall that you have no idea who he is or what he does. He is going to decide if you get promoted. That person who you've never met who's never met you, who's never had a single interaction with you whatsoever, they're going to play an integral role in the future of your life.

 

So if you're willing to accept that you exist in a workplace where everything is connected and where the random person or the random people, let's say, are going to decide what happens to you in your life, wouldn't you want as many people as possible to know you? Wouldn't you want to know as many of those people as possible? Wouldn't you want to tell them about yourself rather than someone else passing along gossip or hearsay or, they don't know you so they're just gonna move on till they find someone they do know? Well, the best way to do this is to talk to people, otherwise known as networking.

 

Before we move onto the topic of how to network, I wanna list three reasons why you should network. 05:01 Number one, control the narrative. You are your greatest advocate, or at least you should be. So doesn't it make sense that you should be, or you should want to be, the person controlling, dictating, influencing what other people think about you? Get out there. Start networking. Control the narrative about yourself.

 

Number two, it's good to have options. Life is funny, it takes twists and turns you never would have suspected. Job opportunities open up in difference divisions at different companies, and you never would have thought you were gonna end up there. But it's always to your advantage if you know someone that's there. And because life doesn't go in a straight line, you don't know where it's gonna go, you don't know what the future holds. So the best thing to do is cast a wide net. Build your network. Get to know as many people as possible. Trust me: there have been three or four opportunities in my career where a big job came along. A job I would have absolutely loved to have. But I didn't even get a foot in the door, I didn't even get a chance to interview, I didn't even get a shoutout because at an earlier stage in my life, I wasn't building my network. There were people I worked with early in my career that went on to big and successful things. I didn't talk to them. And guess what? I paid the price later on. I didn't get a chance at that great interview.

 

Now, I'm not talking about some huge, labor intensive effort. It didn't take a lot for me to network with those people, it's not like -- I didn't move mountains to talk with them. All I'm talking about here is, I didn't even say hi to those people, and I count saying hi as networking.

 

Okay, the third topic: people. The more people you know, and the more people who know you, the better. It's as simple as that. In a world that is so connected, the more connections you have, the better. Whether it's solving a problem at work and you're able to say, "I know that person. Hey, I know someone in that division. Hey, I'll call so and so, because I talked to them earlier." Whether you're launching a new business -- people are the most important part of making life work, or making work work. So the more authentic human interactions and the more human connections you can cultivate, the better.

 

Okay, so we've redefined networking as simple talking to other human beings. We've also justified the many benefits of talking to these human beings in an effort to justify why you should talk to these other people, why you should network. Now let's talk about how you network. Here's the thing about networking: it's easy. It's stupid easy. And anyone can do it. Here are three ways to network: number one, say hi. Saying hi to people is networking. Saying thank you is networking. But saying hi is the most important and overlooked and easiest method for networking. You know when you're early to a meeting and people are kind of trickling in? It's kind of awkward because everyone doesn't know each other, everyone wishes they had showed up a little bit later, because it's a little bit strange when there's only a couple people in the room. Maybe you even do know the person but they're not your best friend. You know what I'm talking about. We have these kind of situations every day, every week, big and small. And in these moments, everyone kind of retreats to their own chair. They find an empty row, they flip through their papers, they're pretending to look at something. Or nowadays they pull out their phone and they just scroll through things. They're purposely shutting themselves off from the people around them and saying, "I'm busy, look, I'm not lonely, I'm doing something so you don't need to bother me." It's at these moments you need to network. And by network, I mean say hi. It's a stranger. Introduce yourself. It's a co-worker. Make small talk. It's a big boss, walk over and say hi. "Hi, Jeff, I'm Justin Kerr. I'm a senior merchant in the kids division. I just wanted to introduce myself." Because here's the thing: Jeff, even though he's an SVP, even though he's an executive vice president, whatever the title is, he's also a human being. And he's also nervous. And he's also feeling awkward that he showed up in a room where there aren't enough people, and he's a little bit early and he's not sure what he should do. He may also be shy. He's human. So treat him like a human, and say hi. Guess what happens? One week from now, one month from now, one year from now, five years from now, Jeff is going to remember you. He's gonna think fondly of you because you're the person who said hi.

 

And while you may think I'm over-exaggerating or I guess the phrase is just "exaggerating", the truth is, I'm not. Because while I presented the idea to you as simply saying hi, 10:05 in fact there're many more layers to it. By saying hi, you showed self-confidence. You showed good manners. You showed Jeff that he could trust you to talk to other people in a normal way. That's about 50 percent of what it takes to be a good leader, to be a good person.

 

Now, before I move on from the benefits of saying hi, I don't want you to interpret my point as being, you should only say hi to big bosses. The point is, you should say hi to everyone. Cause the thing is, you don't know. You don't know who's gonna leave the company and create the next great startup. You don't know who's gonna be working at a company you're gonna want to work for. And whether you say hi or not at that meaningless meeting is gonna determine if you have an ally or a stranger waiting for you at the gate. And finally, you don't know how much it'll mean to that other person lower on the totem pole if you just go say hi to them. Remember, it's an ecosystem -- everything is connected. So say hi to everyone. If you're nice to someone who's lower on the food chain than you, guess what? They're probably gonna talk to other people and say, "You know what? That guy's pretty nice. He said hi to me." So you're spreading the good work, you're networking without even networking. And all you had to do was say hi.

 

Alright, I wanna move on to other ways of networking. If saying hi is the casual side of networking, there's also a more strategic side to networking. It's easy, too. Anyone can do it. I'm gonna focus on two methods. One, the email cold call. And two, in the moment slash follow up. Let's say there's someone in the company you'd like to meet. How do you cross that bridge? How do you make that connection? One option is, ask for an introduction. If your boss knows someone or if someone knows someone, ask them to make an introduction for you. This is using your network to build a bigger network. That's a great way to go.

 

But let's say you have no connection whatsoever to this person -- what do you do then? Here's what I want you to remember: flattery will get you everywhere. Send them an email, and say you like their style, say you like the way they work, say you like the way they think, say you like the way they handle things, and you'd appreciate a chance to talk with them even for 15 minutes. I don't know a person in the world that wouldn't respond favorably to such a message. Flattery will get you everyone. Now, here's the key: keep it short. The less words, the better. I think three sentences is too many. Two sentences is perfect. Sentence number one should say, "I like you." Sentence two should say, "Can I meet you?" That's it. Guaranteed success 90 percent of the time. Make it easy for them to say yes. That's why we said 15 minutes. You're gonna have plenty of time in the future to build a relationship. Keep the email short, keep your first meeting short, 15 minutes. And if you like each other, if you hit it off, you're gonna have plenty of 30 minutes sessions, one hour sessions, long lunches, whatever you want. So don't try and get everything at once. I guarantee you, if you ask someone for 30 minutes or an hour, they're gonna say no. Who wants to be trapped in an office with someone they don't know for 30 minutes or one hour? That sounds like a nightmare to me. Now, if you wanna move your chances to 100 percent response, you need to add a specific point of interest. A topic that they love, a specific comment that they've made you wanna reference, or a shared interest. Keep it punchy.

 

Alright, that's how to network via the email cold call. And I can get you a 90 or 100 percent acceptance rate on that, so use that. Here's another way to network that's more in the moment, or with a follow up. You'll recognize this as a version of what we just talked about, but it's a little bit different. If you're coming out of a meeting where there's someone that you like or something that you've connected with, use the excuse of that specific topic or that question or a disagreement to launch a relationship. Grab someone in the hallway and ask, "Would it be okay if I grab you for ten minutes to follow up on that point? Or, "I'm interested in what you said at that meeting. Would it be possible for me to set up some time for us to talk about it? I'm not sure I totally understand." Remember, flattery will get you everywhere. No matter what happened in the meeting, no matter what titles they are, everyone gets nervous about what they're doing and self-conscious about was it received well, was it not, were people listening, was it not. If you're able to walk up to someone and acknowledge their existence, let alone flatter them, trust me: they're going to want to engage with you, they're going to acknowledge you, and it's gonna lead to good things. Now, that's what I have to say about networking.

 

15:00 But actually, that's not all I have to say about networking. I wanna take this next section into the bonus section. Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on, Jessica! Bonus! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! Bonus section. Now, you might have heard me call out Jessica in that bonus section introduction. We have our first live audience member of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Sure, we are now recording episodes live and broadcasting them to you via Instagram when we record the episodes. But now, we have live audience members. Jessica, we're so happy to have you here.

 

JESSICA: Thanks.

 

JUSTIN: I've got four random points I wanna make about networking. Number one: don't be the annoying person who shows up and tries to set meetings with every top executive. That's being a kiss-ass. Nobody likes a kiss-ass. Don't do that. Number two: don't try and meet every single person at once. Slow and steady is better. I recommend that you set yourself a goal of meeting one new person every 30 days. Once a month. It's easy. It doesn't sound like much. One new person every 30 days? Anyone can do that. I can do that, you can do that, it's simple. But here's the math: at the end of the year, there's gonna be 12 new people that you have a relationship with. That you've created a positive interaction with. Twelve new people that become allies of yours, supporters of yours, fans of yours, or that you can draw on at some future time. Twelve new people at the end of one year. Fast forward at the end of three years, 36 people. Think of your office. If I could tell you you would have had 36 people who like you if you had made a little bit of effort once a month, that sounds like a good thing. And think about this: I was at Gap, Inc for 11 years. If I had followed my own advice, I would have 131 people who loved Justin Kerr. Now, I know for a fact I don't even have that many people now. I totally missed the boat. I never followed my own advice. But I would probably be president, CEO, or something super amazing if I had followed my own advice and had 131 people who said, "You know what? That Justin guy, he's okay. He said hi to me." Alright.

 

So one person a month. Set a goal. Cause here's the other thing: if you go out there and try and set meetings with everyone right at once, you're gonna do that and you're gonna flame out and you'll never meet anyone else the rest of your career and it's a wasted energy. So set a specific goal, a small goal, an achievable goal, and let it build up over time.

 

Number three, what are you going to say? Sure, you can get in the room if you follow my advice. But if you don't have your act together, it can do more harm than good. So here's what I encourage you to do when you get in the room, when you're networking, when you're talking to someone. Whether this is in a hallway conversation, whether this is in a formal setting, whatever the case may be, here's four things I want you to do. Number one: reveal a secret. You can say, "I never admitted this to anyone, but X." It can be so small and trivial, but it draws the other person in, because you're showing a vulnerability. You're letting them in, you're giving them a secret.

 

Number two, share something person. You're just a number at work. But if you can break that paradigm by showing your human side, by showing something that you're interested in. I love comics. I'm a beekeeper. I swam across the ocean. Whatever the case may be, I walk to work. It doesn't matter. You don't have to have a wow. You've got to give them something to hold onto that allows them to, when they see you, they remember, hey, that's the guy that walks to work. At least that's something. So share something personal. That was number two.

 

Number three, have a specific question. You've gotta go in there having something that you want to ask, that you've prepared. If you're lucky, the topics will just roll and you'll go with it and there'll be a thousand things you talk about. But if you don't hit it off, you wanna go in there and make sure you have at least one topic that you say, "This is something I wanna get out of this meeting, here's a question for you." It's gonna make you look prepared, it's gonna make you look smart. And it's gonna take the pressure off of the other person of having to carry the entire conversation.

 

And here's the fourth thing, and this is really important cause a lot of people miss this: ask for a second date. If you like the meeting and you like how it's going, it's better to ask for the second date during the first date. You're in the room. You have their attention. It shows them that this isn't a one night stand. You wanna keep this relationship going, and it may make them more willing to go deeper and open themselves up. So ask for that second date while you're in the room.

 

Alright, my final point: 20:10 network within your network. Don't go big game hunting. Don't look for executives, don't check a box and think, "I'm networking, I talked to the CEO, I talked to the CFO, I talked to the Vice President." That's one thing. It has its own place and time. I encourage you to strengthen your immediate circle. Start with your own team. If you're a boss, network with your team. Talk with them. Have human interactions with them. Say hi to them. Don't skip over your cross-functional partners, the people you see every day. Are there people in your world, you walk by their desk every day and you never say hi? Break that paradigm. It gets awkward for everyone. Just say hi to them.

 

That's networking. Build up your network, start small and build outwards. Focus on the everyday. The stronger your foundation is, the stronger your network is in your immediate sphere, the better off you're gonna be, okay? Now, here's the thing: every human interaction is networking. Sure, you're gonna build new interactions, you're gonna strengthen existing interactions, and you're gonna re-establish forgotten human interactions. Reach out to the old boss. Reach out to the old co-worker. Reach out to the old employee that used to work for you. Drop them a quick email. See how they're doing. This is networking. It's another form of networking. Just cause they're not in your office, doesn't mean that they're not relevant. In fact, they may be more relevant for you, because they're out in the big world. They're outside your tiny little box that you exist in.

 

So take advantage of that, drop a quick email, just tell someone, "Hey, I was thinking of you. How's it going?" Let them pick it up from there. That's gonna be worth it's weight in gold as you go out in the world. And maybe it's one year, two years, three years from now when you need them. Put that down payment, it doesn't cost you anything. Go say hi to somebody.

 

Alright. That's it for the Mr. Corpo podcast today. And that all came from Noah, who sent me a text at midnight on a Friday and the next day I sat down, I woke up in the morning, and I wrote 20 pages about how to network. It had never crossed my mind. So get out there, shoot me a message on the social channels, let's figure out what else we can solve for everybody.

 

Rob, thanks for another great episode. Jessica, thank you for being our best live audience member of all time. Also our first, but our best. You're setting the standard. And shoutout to everyone else who's joining us on the live Instagram feed. Um, I don't have anything else to say, but in the future you can type us questions and I'll take your questions during the live show. And by the way, mrcorpo.com is our website, where all of our episodes live. You can buy some of the books and you can check everything else out. So that's it. Signing off from the Mr. Corpo podcast. Onwards and upwards.

 

(music)

 

23:09

Should you grow your business by $1 Million this year or $80K per month or $18K per week or $3K per day? MR CORPO talks about how to set small measurable goals so your team can make decisions on an hourly, daily, weekly basis. MR CORPO also weighs in on how to trick your boss and why you need to repeat yourself constantly if you are a boss and why you need to repeat yourself constantly if you are a boss. A special call-in guest definitively re-affirms MR CORPO's feelings about cover letters.

 LISTEN HERE:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

JUSTIN: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. I am actually recording this episode from the Newark airport at 7:44am on a Tuesday morning. It's gonna go live tonight. And the reason I'm recording from Newark airport is, I am an efficiency monster. And I recorded an episode and it was 30 minutes long, for how to write your goals, or how to set goals, and I just thought it was way too long, and it was a waste of your time. So, I'm re-recording it on the way to San Francisco from the airport. So, without further ado, let's get to work.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, and welcome to the first episode of Season 3 of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Welcome to 2017. On today's episode, we want to talk about how to set your goals. And there's three different parts to today's episode. I wanna talk about the individual setting goal, I want to talk about the boss setting goal, and then I want to talk about New Year's resolution goals. So, when we're talking about the individual, I just have one thing I want to say, because if you've read my book, How To Write An Email, and you go to page 70, there's an entire chapter on how to write goals. So just go out and buy the book, and then you don't have to listen to this podcast.

 

But I do have something new to say about setting goals for the individual. And what that is is, I want you to take advantage of your knowledge. You know more than your boss, you know more than the rest of the company. So no matter what, when you're writing your goals, there's always at least one or more goals that are up to you, the individual, to write. And you get to decide, what are you gonna do, what's the goal, what's the subject, all of those things.

 

Now, what I want you to do is, use what you know. Because your boss is busy, they don't have time to review every single sentence of every single person's goals. So what they're going is, they're scanning the goals to make sure there's something quantifiable, there's something specific, and then after that, they really don't care, and they don't do the homework, and they don't check. So what I mean by this is, you can pick a category that maybe was underserved last year, cause usually our goals are written against last year, and say you're gonna grow it 200 percent. When your boss scans that on the goals page, it's gonna look impressive and gonna look outrageous. But the thing your boss doesn't know is, you've already bought inventory for 300 or 400 percent. Or for example, something happened last year and the holiday lands on a different day, or your best customer didn't place the order in time and this year they will. You know things that your boss and the company don't know. And so use that to your advantage when you're writing the goals.

 

Now, the reason that it's important to have quantifiable, measurable goals is, even if you have a great relationship with your boss, even if your boss loves you and you love your boss, it takes more than the two of you to get you promoted. And especially when they're talking about raises and promotions, you get HR, you get bosses' bosses involved, you even get peers of your boss involved. You wanna have a sheet of paper in black and white that travels around the organization really easily that says, "This was the goal, this is what I achieved." So you can't argue with this. Even if the goal was unfair at the beginning of the year, or too easy, if that was the goal and you beat it, hey, more for you. So that's all I wanna say about the individuals setting goals. Use your knowledge to your advantage.

 

Okay. Now, I wanna talk about the boss. Alright, I'm working on my new book, it's called How To Be A Boss. And there's a segment in there where I'm talking about how to lead your team. And one of the keys to leading your team is setting small goals. So I'm not gonna talk about setting big, William Wallace, let's-run-over-the-hill-and-kill-everybody gigantic goals that are gonna motivate the army to take over the world in five years. I'm talking about daily, weekly, monthly, how are you guiding your team to get the mission accomplished? You've got to set small goals. Cause here's the thing: as human beings, we want to be measured. We want to be recognized. We want to be told we're doing well, and we want to be able to keep score. So in order to keep score, you gotta know what the measuring stick is, and you gotta know what the rules are, and you gotta know what the goal of the game is. So what you wanna do as a leader is set small goals.

 

Now, what I wanna do is, I wanna tell you, here's how not to set your goals. This is the absolutely wrong way to do it, if you say something like this: "I'm gonna grow my business. "That doesn't mean anything, that should be obvious. Here's another way: "I want to get promoted this year." Okay well, you want to get promoted, everybody does. At least you said this year, so you gave yourself a time frame. But it doesn't really mean anything. So you've got to be specific. Those are obvious examples.

 

Now, I want to go into some less obvious examples. People might say, "I want to grow the business by one million dollars this year." 05:00 Okay, we'll go into detail why that's not a good goal. "I want to grow the business by 20 percent." Alright, the thing about 20 percent is, nobody knows what 20 percent means, so 20 percent isn't a good goal." When you say 20 percent and your team is in a meeting and they're trying to make a decision, how do they hold onto 20 percent? It's not an increment that is really useful for them to make a decision in that day, in that meeting, or to solve an argument.

 

And the same goes when you're setting a goal for, "I want to grow by a million dollars this year." It seems specific, it has a time measurement, but my argument is, no human being can hold onto a year increment. We don't live and exist in a world of year increments. We live in a world of hours and days and weeks. So what you need to go is break down your big goal into smaller goals, so that your team can really take action against it.

 

So a couple ways you can do this as a boss. You take your million-dollar goal, let's divide it by 12 months, you're gonna get about 80,000 dollars a month. But again, I don't feel like 80,000 dollars in a month, it's not really gonna help me and my team make decisions and set small goals. If I look at it against 56 weeks, maybe I set this goal by week, okay, it gets me around 20,000 dollars. Again, 20,000 -- it's gonna depend what kind of business you're in, if a week is a good goal or not. But being able to say to your team, "We need to grow the business by 20 percent, or 20,000 dollars every week." That seems much more tangible and actionable than a million dollars in a year. I would even go so far as, what does a million dollars look like divided by 365 days of the year? And all of a sudden you get that math and it's about 3,000 dollars a day. All of a sudden if you say to your team, "Guess what, we want to grow by a million dollars this year, it's the equivalent of 3,000 dollars a day."

 

So when you're taking action, when you're doing your work, I want you to think, is this gonna add 3,000 dollars per day? All of a sudden, the 3,000 seems actionable. It's small enough that you can imagine taking things that are gonna make that happen, taking actions that are gonna make that happen. And then in addition, you can imagine every day, how am I gonna grow the business by 3,000 dollars? Voila, all of a sudden you and your team have actionable, small goals. So no matter your situation, no matter the goals, figure out a way to break it down and make it real for your team.

 

Alright, now the last thing I want to talk about is New Years resolutions. And it's related to the idea of a million dollars in one year. The reason most New Years resolutions fail is, the increment of time is unrealistic and doesn't help you make a decision. So if my goal is to get in better shape this year, if my goal is this year, it doesn't help me make the decision of whether I should get off the couch today or whether I can go work out tomorrow. Because in my mind, how can I determine if today's workout versus tomorrow's workout is gonna make a difference versus the year measuring stick? That's why small goals are so important. That's why you want to be able to say, "My goal for the next two weeks is to work out five times." That's much more measurable. And then set the next goal, rather than set some big lob that's too far out there that means nothing.

 

Now, one of the things I think's interesting as it relates to work and New Years resolutions, I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this idea of, don't set goals, instead change your life, or change the structure of your life. So if we're talking about going to the gym or something else, if gym is important to you, move your gym clothes to the top drawer of your closet. Change the order of your closet to reinforce for you what's more important. Some goes for your desk or your work. If you want to get better at something, if you have a goal for one particular area at work, guess what? Pick that area, rearrange the way you work or do that first. Change a behavior. Changing a behavior will get your attention and reinforce for you, something's different, I need to pay attention, this is more important, I'm setting out to do this. If you just keep doing the same behaviors and the same routine and expecting a different result, we all know that's not going to work. So rearrange your desk, move the clock to the other side, whatever it is, do something to change your behavior, get your attention, so you start paying attention and you start winning. So that's all I have to say for how to set goals.

 

And then the last thing I'm gonna say is on Sunday, we had a special guest, Colin, so I'm gonna hand it over to that segment, and then we're out. Rob, thanks for another good show and everything's great, excited to get this thing going in 2017.

 

(airport noises)

 

JUSTIN: Special guest coming in for a special section for the Ask Mr. Corpo 10:01 podcast, who do you have on the phone here?

 

JUSTINSF: Justin from San Francisco.

 

JUSTIN: Welcome, Justin. Thank you for joining us. For those of you that don't know, Justin is a world-famous, world-renowned, top of his field recruiter in the corporate world. Would you say that's an accurate description, Justin?

 

JUSTINSF: Uh, it's some -- somewhat accurate.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright. Now, I'm not going to disclose the name of your company. I'm gonna keep that a secret to protect your job, so you can answer this honestly and to the best of your ability, okay?

 

JUSTINSF: Sounds good.

 

JUSTIN: So, on last week's episode, I talked about interviewing. And for a brief second in the bonus section I talked about resumes, and I gave all these dos and don'ts of resumes, and one of the things I said at the end of the episode -- I know you're an avid listener so you probably heard this -- was I said, "Under no circumstances whatsoever should you ever do a cover letter." Now, this was my point of view cause I said they're a waste of time, I don't need to see them, I never read them, they're so generic. I got a super angry letter to the podcast from Rainor Castillo, who is a founder of Chubbies, a very famous and successful business, so it really got -- caught my attention when he said this. He said my point of view on the Mr. Corpo podcast is far too skewed to being a part of large, corporate organizations, and as such, before I even see a candidate they're gone through filters. But he said as a small startup, he receives hundreds of applications for any given job. And as such, they all start to look the same. And so he starts to rely on cover letters as a chance for people to have their personality shine through.

 

So as someone who probably gets hundreds -- thousands -- of resumes and has looked at tens of thousands of resumes in their career, I'm interested from your perspective, what is the time and the place and the usefulness for cover letters?

 

JUSTINSF: In my perspective, or from my perspective, I would agree with you. Uh, I do not really even look to open them and I have even said aloud in my office like, why do people keep sending cover letters? Um, I think a lot can be told from a resume, a lot can be told if you're a creative type from your portfolio, or your Instagram page, or your Pinterest board. Um, I don't need you to tell me, like, all the great things about you. I'd rather learn about them if you are a standout, from what I see on your LinkedIn page or your resume or those other creative outlets I mentioned previously. But I don't -- I don't believe in them and I don't read them. I think they're old school. Um, I can see his point, where he's coming from, because he's looking for somebody to stand out. But that takes a lot of time to read, you know, a five-paragraph cover letter. Um, and I just don't feel like I get much out of them, and I've kind of trained my team to not even worry about them because it's just them kind of, you know, self-proclaiming why they are a good fit for this role. Which maybe, from Rainer's point of view, that's what he needs or what he looks for. But my point of view, I don't. And I don't honestly really care.

 

And I have -- would tell people, and I've told, like, those that are, you know, soon-to-be graduates that like, don't -- don't spend time focusing on a cover letter. Spend time focusing on creating your portfolio and also getting your resume to a tight place that you can tell a story, um, even if you don't really have a big background and like, a lot of job history, like at least have a nice, clear, well-put-together resume to go along with your portfolio. Especially if you're a creative type. Uh, do not spend, you know, hours putting together a cover letter.

 

JUSTIN: I love it, I love it, I love it. Not only because you agree with me, um, not only because you have the same name as me, but also I think you make some great points. When you say cover letters are outdated -- when I think about a cover letter, when I think about 30 years ago, you had no other touch points for any of the hiring managers to get to know you. They just had your resume, they had this cover letter to ad more context. But I feel like in today's world, you're right. You've got LinkedIn, you've got your Instagram, you've got other places: a website you might point them to. And so I think maybe you don't need this. And especially when you talk about the five-paragraph, death by text of body. You know, it's just like impenetrable when you see all those words.

 

And then the final thing I'll add to this is, rather than doing a separate cover letter, what I like to do on resumes, what I recommend to people is, I like to see the two-sentence blurb at the top of a resume that is the hard-hitting short sentences that tell me everything that I want to know about this person, or this person wants me to know about them, at the top of the resume. What do you think about that as a replacement to the cover letter, just two sentences at the top of the resume?

 

JUSTINSF: Once again, and I'm not always so in a -- you know, a place of agreeing with you on everything -- but I do agree with that, too. I do feel that like, that is a strong way to like, from the get go, before I even dive into your resume, like this is who I am, this is what I can do, and this is what I will bring to your 15:10 company. Um, I much would rather see that versus all these words talking about what you've done and these credentials that you've racked up over the years, that doesn't matter to me. Just tell me what I need to know in a quick and brief format to highlight why you are a good candidate for this role.

 

JUSTIN: I love that. And then, you know, the only thing I'd add while we're uh, talking about these two sentences at the top of your resume is, make sure it has a little bit of personality. Because the rest of your resume is the black and white, here's what I've done. So don't just repeat that with like generic words. But make sure you've got something that catches people's eye. I remember when I was preparing my resume, I had one of the sentences in there said, "Not afraid to ruffle feathers." And it was just something that was gonna kinda tip the hat, maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, but it made you at least intrigued. So I would just encourage people, that's a place to use a little bit of personality and give someone an insight into hey, if you're the world yo-yo champion, like, get it out there. And -- and use that to get people's attention.

 

But listen Justin, thank you for calling in from San Francisco. You're our first non-present visitor on the Mr. Corpo podcast. So now we can say we're cross-country. We're calling in guests from around the world. Thanks for joining us.

 

JUSTINSF: Appreciate it.

 

JUSTIN: Bonus section. Bonus section. Bonus section. Bonus section. Bonus section. I forgot to mention the most important part of goals no matter what, whether you're the individual, whether you're the boss, whether you're anybody. The point is, everyone has to know about your goals. So if you as the individual set your goals and your boss isn't aligned, it doesn't mean anything. So make sure, no matter what you pick, that your boss agrees with you. And just because they don't say anything, that doesn't mean they agree with you. You have to get them in writing, in some type of acknowledgement, to agree with your goals. Otherwise they don't count. And the same goes for being a boss. If you set the goals, you put them on a piece of paper, you send an email and then you never mention them again the rest of the year, it doesn't count. You have to be reinforcing and talking about those goals tens of hundreds of times throughout the year, or whatever the time period is. Repetition is your friend. You have to keep talking about the goals so that everyone knows what they are. They way you can tell if you're doing a good job of communicating your goals is if your boss or HR or anyone walks into a room and they say to your team, "What are the goals?" Everyone would raise their hand and be able to say the simple sentence. Everyone could say, "Our goal is grow 3,000 dollars every day this year." That's a real goal, and you've got to communicate it.

 

So the bonus section is easy, but I'm just reminding you, at the risk of repeating myself, you've got to communicate the goals. Your boss has to agree, your team has to agree, everyone has to agree. And by the way, get your team to agree to the goals. Ask them to agree. They may not have a choice, but if you say, "Do you think this is fair? Does this seem real? Does this seem measurable? Do you think we can do this?" That's -- getting them to verbalize it is gonna get their buy-in to be even a little bit deeper. So you've got to do that. Communicate your goals.

 

Alright, that's it for the bonus section. I'm getting on the plane. We're out.

 

18:39

 

Interviewing for a job is easy. You already know what questions they will ask you and you already have the answers they want to hear (the job description) so really - there should be nothing to talk about when it comes to giving advice on how to interview! Today's special guest Keith George is adamant that you stand up, shake hands, and look the interviewer in the eye and he also explains why 75% of the interview is decided within the first 3 minutes. Join MR CORPO and Keith as they debate the do's and don'ts of interviewing for a job. BONUS SECTION includes tips on your resume and Keith explains why you should never ever no-matter-what use a cover letter. (This is part 2 of the HOW TO INTERVIEW series - Part 1 focuses on the interviewer and the hiring company - so if you are a boss and getting ready to interview people - make sure to check out that episode here).

 LISTEN HERE:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How To Interview Part 2

 JUSTIN: I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Hold on, please don't let me be misunderstood.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today, we are going to talk about how to interview. Now, I know what you're thinking: if you're an avid listener of the show you think, we've already talked about how to interview. But in that episode we talked about how to interview if you were the hiring manager. Today's episode's gonna be how to interview if you are the candidate. If you are the interviewee. And what's even more confusing about this episode is, we have the same guest on episode to talk about how to interview. Keith George, welcome back to the show.

 

KEITH: Thank you for having me.

 

JUSTIN: You are the first time two-time full episode guest. So...we're super excited about that. And just to remind all our listeners, let me tell you a little bit about Keith. He is a former SVP of Gilt.com. He's a current entrepreneur in New York City. He's the father of three. He's the former truck driver of a Coca Cola delivery truck, if you remember from the last episode. He's a former co-worker of mine. He was one of the most important and fun people I ever worked with, so that was great. And he's also a former part-time male model. That's a lot of formers in there. Are --

 

KEITH: Thank -- thanks for reminding everyone.

 

JUSTIN: Are -- would you say you're a former part-time male model, or can we just say part-time male model? Do you still take work?

 

KEITH: No, not currently. Former. Underline.

 

JUSTIN: Does that mean you can't get work? Or...you'd take work if they called.

 

KEITH: Of course. A hundred percent.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah? Atta boy. Now look, here's the thing about Keith. He's been really successful in the working world. He's hired -- how many would you say? Fifty, 100 people, 200 people?

 

KEITH: Correct, yes.

 

JUSTIN: Yes, hundreds of people. He's also interviewed and worked at different companies. He's worked in the consulting world. He's worked, uh, in the retail world. He's worked in the startup world. He's done everything. So, he covers the full gamut. He's a good person that can help us get insights into this world of interviewing -- not just from the candidate, but hopefully he'll share with us what is the person across the table thinking, and how do you get inside their head and do the right answers so you can have as good of an interview as possible. So I'm just gonna hand it over to Keith and just say, "What's up, Keith?" Tell us about interviewing.

 

KEITH: I think 50 percent of the interview is won or lost before you even show up in the door. And an additional 25 percent of that interview is won or lost within the first one to three minutes.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, tell me about the first minute.

 

KEITH: So, before you even show up, I would split it down into two things, that -- that first 50 percent. One is you and one is how you feel about them. So meaning, from a background standpoint, what is the story that your resume tells? What is the story that you're able to put together? And I don't care if you have -- uh, you're interviewing for an entry-level job and you've been a server in a restaurant, I don't care if you're more senior. What is the story that your resume tells, and how does it apply for the -- the job that you're -- you're interviewing for? And then the other one is a -- is actually more on you, is are you interviewing using a shotgun method, or are you just out there looking for work? Or are you actually being focused? Because if you go into an interview with something you're very passionate about, that's gonna show up right the second you walk in the door.

 

And that leads to the -- the next piece, which I said, as far as that first minute first three minutes. I said in the last podcast, one of the most important things for me as an interviewer is somebody who stands up, looks you in the eye, gives you a firm handshake. That's common courtesy. It's important. And so you have to do it. And people look at -- it's almost like a date. People know within three minutes whether they're -- this date, they're gonna go on a second date or not, usually. Now, of course there's that remaining 25 percent that can be changed one way or another. But for the most part, there's a reason why first impressions are incredibly important, and they're always been important. And I think just understanding that before you even get into the meat of the interview is critically important.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you just said a lot. So let me just kinda unpack that for a minute. First of all, as I said last time: standing up during an interview. I've never done that.

 

KEITH: Not standing up, but standing up to meet someone.

 

JUSTIN: No, no, I've never even done that.

 

KEITH: When someone -- when a friend comes up to you at a -- at a restaurant, do you just sit there and say hello, or do you stand up and shake their hand and embrace them? Or a stranger --

 

JUSTIN: Honestly, it depends on how much I like them or not. If I love them, I usually stand up and hug them and give them a kiss on the cheek. If I am indifferent and it's a friend of a friend, I usually sit there and kind of just like, what's up, like a wave. And then if it's someone I don't really know, I'm just kinda like, mm, like I nod. So, if I'm in an interview, I don't know this other person. But you're telling me, stand up, hold my hand out, and start shaking.

 

KEITH: Common respect and courtesy are important.

 

JUSTIN: But now, let me just ask this. 05:00 What if you're a candidate interviewing for a job and you have a really wimpy or really wet handshake, then what?

 

KEITH: The easiest thing to do is to --

 

JUSTIN: Fist bump?

 

KEITH: No. Give your -- give a family member or a friend a handshake and say, is this a dead fish or not. And practice.

 

JUSTIN: Practice makes perfect.

 

KEITH: It's incredibly important. And I think, you know, if you go back to our parents' generation, what they would say is, "You need to wear a suit to an interview." No, no. I'm not saying that.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: Uh, you -- for me, the attire should match the people that you're interviewing with, and maybe a slight -- a little bit nicer than what they're wearing. But for the most part, don't go interview at a -- at a software company in a -- in a suit and tie, because they're gonna say he's not a -- you're not a cultural fit. However, again, I come back to -- there are basic common courtesies around actually greeting people, looking them in the -- looking them in the eye, that are important.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you're just jump -- you're jumping all over here, but alright. So we agree, stand up, shake their hands. I think first impressions count. You talked about what do you wear to the interview. Tell me a little bit more about this. I think this is a tricky setting. You actually don't work there. You've actually probably never been in that office. You have no idea what everyone's wearing. What do you wear to the interview? How do you get dressed? How do you triangulate to make sure you're making the right impression? Because you know, for me working in the fashion industry, it's a little bit off-putting when someone comes in and they're overdressed. There is such a thing as being overdressed.

 

KEITH: Absolutely.

 

JUSTIN: And then it's harder to project that person into your team cause they don't look the part, or they're not dressed the part. So what would your advice be for people when they're thinking about, what am I gonna lay out the day before?

 

KEITH: Think of the recruiter as your ally. The recruiter in a company --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, great point.

 

KEITH: -- wants to place people. The recruiter in the company is not gonna bring you in to waste time. And so this person is your ally. They want you to get hired. They don't wanna have to go and do more resume searches. So use them. Ask them the question: how do people dress? What do you see -- how do -- how to people show up that's most successful? And it does -- goes back to much more, again, uh, than just the dress. But just, what do I need to do to show up here and make sure that I'm appropriate?

 

JUSTIN: Fascinating, alright. So you just said something I've never thought of, which is: use the resources. That recruiter is neutral, and so not only ask them a general questions, but ask specific. So say, when they say, what should I wear, and they say business casual, you can say, "Can you be a little bit more specific than that?" Are people wearing button-down shirts? Are they wearing, you know, sweatshirts? Are they wearing shorts? Get to the details so you actually look good.

 

KEITH: That is correct. And in most cases, I would actually say that a recruiter is less than neutral. Their job is to place people, and use that to your advantage. They -- often times there may be, you know, a massive casting call. But let's just -- as you progress in your career, they're not bringing everyone who just sends a resume in. They're bringing people in who they think might be a fit. They want to place these people, and use them as -- as a resource.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright. So recruiters are your friend. That's a great insight. I wanna go back to something you said at the beginning, which is: how prepared are you for the interview? So you talked about the idea of, are you out there just interviewing at ten companies, and you're just showing up and being like, I'm just gonna talk about myself? Or are you showing up because I love this company, I've done research, I've got different facts and things at my disposal? Because when I was thinking about interviewing, here's the thing about interviewing: it should be the easiest thing in the world, because if I tell you that you already know all the questions, you also know all the answers, cause the answers are in the job description, they've told you what they want to hear.

 

KEITH: Of course.

 

JUSTIN: And then you've got unlimited time to prepare for the interview. And then you've got two to three to five to ten to 15 years of experience to draw on, to find two or three good answers? There's no excuse for not nailing an interview. Do you -- do you feel the same way?

 

KEITH: I do. There is no excuse. A mentor of mine, Kevin Ryan, who's the founder of Gilt, told me one thing. He said, "I don't understand how people approach the -- the job search process because you would never just go to a college that sent you an application or said hey, come to this college. You think about the colleges you wanna go to, you do research, you talk to friends, you find out the places where you might fit in and where your academics are gonna be, you know, in line with the other students. And then you go out and you visit them and you then apply to the schools you wanna go to."

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

KEITH: The idea that you're just going to do a shotgun method of just any place around -- it just doesn't work. And so it's not about just showing up prepared to be able to -- to give the exact answer that they wanna hear. You need to be prepared for yourself as well. And so the key questions that you need to ask yourself before you go into this is, what makes me the right fit, is this the right fit for me? And when you go in there at it from both, you're interviewing them and they're interviewing you, it completely changes the -- the dynamic of the interview.

 

JUSTIN: When I'm going in -- I -- I agree with you on this idea of you should be interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. And I wanna save that kind of till the end. But I wanna talk about 10:00 when you're going into that interview, what do you have to be prepared with? Can you just have two or three standing anecdotes that just work for 99 percent of interviews, or -- what do you need to prepare? Like, are you answering every question? Or are you actually, like a politician, pivoting from whatever their question is into your two or three answers?

 

KEITH: About. There's the tangible and the intangible. So, from the tangible standpoint, you mentioned this earlier, around -- they've told you what the job description is, they've told you exactly those skills. You need to be prepared for how your skills directly translate. An example of exactly how you can deliver on what they're asking for. Absolutely, 100 percent. But that's not good enough. What you need is one to two intangible examples that show your leadership, your capacity to manage, your capacity to work well with others. And you need to be prepared to speak in that way. And I think it -- it is a skill that doesn't show up like a politician that say, let me take your question and redirect and now here's the reason why you know, you need to an -- I wanna get this point across. But at the same time, you need to be able to come across with those intangible components. And they may not always be asked, because some people ask open-ended questions around leadership and give you that opportunity. Some people just go straight into the meat.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay, wait. Let me just mention one pet peeve I have. People come into interviews and they don't have specific examples. They come into the interviews and they just float on these generalities and they're like, yeah, I was on the team that worked on this project and it went really well. And I'm sitting there as the -- as the person that's interviewing them, and I'm like, be specific. Tell me exactly what you did. So I would wanna say, for candidates out there, the more specific you can be, the clearer picture you can paint for me of what your role was and what you did, the more likely I am to remember you or be impressed by that, rather than just these generalities. Would you agree with that?

 

KEITH: I absolutely agree. And I -- I also wanna make clear that that goes for both tangible and intangibles. I think sometimes people think about the tangible examples that are specific about this project. But also the intangibles are in leadership -- it does -- just because leadership is a broad topic, doesn't mean that you get to be broad in that area. You need to show specific examples about how you demonstrated those characteristics.

 

JUSTIN: And I think the whole thing is -- the last thing I'll say on this topic is, have short, punchy, specific examples. You need a few of those in your pocket where you just can draw them out and just say, oh, that reminds me of this, and I did this, and this happened, and then stop talking and let them ask the next question.

 

KEITH: I'd like to add one thing.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: Which is a baseline passion for what you're doing.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: And I'm not saying that you have to be the most passionate about being a business analyst in the specific role at this time. But if you're interviewing in an industry and a role that you aren't passionate about anything, then we have a problem. And I thin you've already lost the interview before you go there. Even if you get the job, you lost.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, well --

 

KEITH: Even if you get the job.

 

JUSTIN: No, that's interesting. I've -- I've made that mistake a few times, because you know, I always struggle with, am I an artist, am I a corporate person, and you meet the recruiters and they're really nice, you're in a job interview and they're nice, and you kinda get wrapped up and all of a sudden they're like, well, they're like, what do you wanna do in five years. You're like, well, maybe I wanna be a screen printer and I wanna like, write books, and you're talking and you're thinking you're just having an honest exchange. And it's like, this person doesn't want your life story, and they don't wanna know that you're struggling with things. They wanna know you're passionate about what you're about to do, and you're gonna be a soldier for them, right?

 

KEITH: That -- absolutely. And so I have an analogy that says -- around marriage, they say, the sure -- most surefire way to not marry the person of your dreams is to go ahead and marry someone that is not the person of your dreams. Because you've basically sacrificed yourself from the opportunity. And so the same thing goes for a job. Why --

 

JUSTIN: I don't know if that's smart, or the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

KEITH: It may be. You've let somewhere find -- no. But it's as if, why are you there? Why are you interviewing for this job? Now listen, people need to put food on the table, understood.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: All of that.

 

JUSTIN: People wanna feel wanted, someone to call them --

 

KEITH: They wanna feel wanted, etcetera. All those things are different, right, you gotta pay your rent. And I'm -- but we're not, kinda, going there right now. What I'm saying is -- is that, if you go interview for a job and convince them that you get things done and that you, you know, show up on time and you're all these things, right? Okay, great, but they're gonna hire you, but then all of a sudden, you have to do that job. And so what are we doing, because life is short, and so to me, if you can communicate all those things and people can all love you and they're going to hire you and you're gonna feel wanted and all that stuff, but on day one, you show up --

 

JUSTIN: And you're bored already --

 

KEITH: -- and then you're there. And then you're not at your dream job. And I don't believe that there's any one job that is always gonna be someone's dream. Because you'll get in there and you'll work and all of a sudden your dreams will change. But what's critically important to me is they're heading in a general direction that fits many of the -- the check boxes of your life.

 

JUSTIN: 15:03 Okay, alright. That's fair. Now, to that point about figuring out if this is the job you want, what questions would you recommend people ask the company, or the interviewers? What are questions that can -- and what should the approach be? Are they trying to sound smart? Are they trying to glean information from them, to help them make a decision? Or are they just trying to fill time, to fill the last 30 minutes? Like, I think it's a tricky time because sometimes you're -- you're there, you're prepared to answer all the questions, and they say, what questions do you have? And I feel like more often than not, people come back with the most generic comments. They're like, well, tell me what you think about the company. And I sit there and I go, wow, that's the best you could do? So what would you recommend people should ask the interviewer? Like, what makes them sound smart or what comes across as, hey, this person's really thinking about it?

 

KEITH: I agree that people who try to ask a question that's almost too smart is a challenge, or a problem.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay.

 

KEITH: A great example would be if you ask a director of finance about the overarching global strategy of retailers and everything like --

 

JUSTIN: Right, blah blah blah blah blah, okay.

 

KEITH: It's just -- this is just -- all you wanna do is hear me talk, so you can think that you asked a smart question. So that is something that -- that I would shy away from. Where I tend to go to is around the people in the organization. Tell me about your team. Tell me about the people who've been successful. Tell me about how they're successful.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: Not because, you know, I necessarily need to fit that mode, but just -- I wanna understand how you're -- you're gonna fit into the -- into this culture. Because people don't quit their job because of their title, their pay, and frankly, sometimes what they do, they usually quit their job because of their manager. And so -- and the manager sets the tone. And so often times if you say, "Tell me about you and your leadership style," of course they're gonna say, "Oh, they're -- you know, I'm the greatest."

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: But if you ask about the team around you, and what makes them successful, then you kinda find out who this person thinks is successful, and if there's somebody who says -- and I'll just use an exam -- an example, so you know, Bill, he sleeps under his desk every night, he's here seven days a week and I really love that about him. Then you're like, oh okay, well, the person that's gonna be successful here is gonna be somebody who is going to basically just lay down and give up all of their life for this job. Now, maybe that's what you're willing to do because it's something that you're passionate about. I'm not sure. But you need to understand and be able to pick that apart.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, that's a great point. I didn't see where you were going with that question, cause I thought you're gonna get generic answers from the boss, but you're saying, depending on what that boss describes as what they like or don't like or the attribute that comes to mind --

 

KEITH: Or who's successful --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright, that's interesting, yeah. That's one I've always struggled with. Um, you know, I think the thing about interviews is, the other thing I'd wanna say is, it takes some practice. You know, I think for some of us, I know in my career, I was at Gap, Inc for 11 years. And I didn't do a lot of interviewing, almost no interviewing. And when I went to do interviews, it was kind of a shock to the system. And I remember the first one I did, it was with, uh, J. Crew, and I got on the phone and it was for like a vice president of something, and I got on the phone and within about three minutes I quickly realized, "I am wholly and totally unprepared for this." Basically I didn't know what to say. They just looked at me and they asked the most basic question and I just sat there and I was like, "Oh, um, maybe, uh..." I must have sounded like the biggest idiot in the world. And we kinda hung up the phone, we walked away from each other. I think they never called me, I never called them, the recruiter never called me back. I think we all just agreed to pretend it never happened.

 

And the reason I bring that up is, looking back on it now, you need to practice a little bit. And I don't know whether you would recommend people practice with their friends, with their family, or would you say, do you go out on some interviews that maybe aren't gonna be your favorite job, just to get the practice of people asking you questions, and also, talking about yourself. It's not always a natural skill for people to have to put themselves in the brightest terms in the shortest amount of time possible. So what are your thoughts on that in terms of practice and getting ready for an interview if you haven't done it in a long time?

 

KEITH: I would recommend against going on practice interviews. And here's why. One is, I feel like it's disrespectful to the people you're interviewing with if you're really not interested in that. And secondly, they'll -- they can often times see -- see through it. I think that what I would prefer a candidate to do is spend more time thinking about what they want, talking with friends about what's important to them, asking them -- their friends questions and having their friends ask them questions about, not necessarily, let's sit down and role play I'm the interviewer, but why are you actually interested in this? Because again, I come back to this: 75 percent of the job interview is done within three minutes. I'm telling you people will never admit this, but they make that decision, they look at that resume, they seem them and again whether it's important to you that someone stands up and looks you in the eye 20:01 or not is -- that's a little bit beside the point. It is, people decide what they wanna do very quickly. So for you coming in, knowing exactly what you want, knowing why this job is important to you, all of those things, that is the basis for a good interview. You're right. People are gonna throw you a curveball. People may ask you, you know, a trick question, all those things, how many gum balls would fit you know, fill the United States and all those things --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: And to me, part of that says, the people who ask those questions may not be the people you wanna work for anyway. Unless you like that type -- sort of -- sort of thing, and then you're gonna bond over it. And so to me the preparation is less about, let me practice for this specific curveball question that I may get in an interview, and more actually, do a -- a larger deep dive on myself and what makes me interested in any one thing. Because that passion is what will come through.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, I mean I think you're asking a lot of these candidates. I feel like a lot of people that are 20 years old and 30 years old don't think as deeply as you've just asked them to.

 

KEITH: I think you're correct. But I mentor a lot of college kids and what I tell them is, I say, "Hey, just so we're -- we're clear, you don't have a house, a job, or a mortgage, or kids, or anything. You have time to go sit in a coffee shop for 30 minutes and write down ten things that are important to you."

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, but I'm still figuring it out. I mean --

 

KEITH: It's not that you're not -- that you need to figure it out. But just -- I could answer five things that I think are important to you right now, if you asked me. And I'm not even you.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, okay, okay. Alright, I think it's fair. So -- so let me just say one -- one other thing. If you had to boil this all down and tell the candidate, here's your one job when you go into an interview, here's the one thing you have to get right, here's the most important thing, what's the one thing you want them to nail? Like, what is their task? They're going into this interview, they're going into battle, they're going into this conversation, what's the one thing above everything else, just get this right? What would that one thing be?

 

KEITH: Show passion for the job.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, speak loudly, or move your hands around like I do, like this?

 

KEITH: No.

 

JUSTIN: No. Just be passionate.

 

KEITH: Be passionate about the job.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. I think that's a great answer. Be passionate. Let them know you care. Because even if you're not perfect, and the chances are you're not perfect, if you have passion and the will to want to work hard and do this, you can see past a lot of the other problems.

 

KEITH: I'll give you an example.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: So Michael Ovitz, who is the famous -- he was Disney, but he was the founder of CAA --

 

JUSTIN: Oh yeah, he was a failure at Disney, but he was good at CAA. Yes.

 

KEITH: CAA. Founded Creative Artists -- Artists Agency. He started at I believe, William Morris Agency, straight out of college, in the mail room. And why did he work in the mail room at this agency? Because he got to deliver the mail to the agents, and in doing so he built relationships with them, and within a year was promoted out of the mail room, became an agent. Six years later, he went off to found CAA. The training program now at CAA is one of the hardest training programs to get in because obviously, lot of people wanna be an agent, right? Talent agent, movie agent, etcetera. The training program at CAA is called The Mail Room. And so what I wanna make sure everybody understands is that if you do that internal deep dive and understand where you wanna go, that passion will drive you to heights that you would never be able to achieve in other industries and other fields.

 

JUSTIN: Wow. I mean, I was here just ready to talk about interviews, but you just did like a whole life plan lesson. That was incredible, wow. Great words. Um, I wanna move us over into the bonus section right now. Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on, Keith. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! And Keith, you're alright, too.

 

On today's bonus section, I wanna talk about resumes. Just a minute or two, we didn't prepare anything for this, Keith, but I just wanna talk about resumes, cause they're the thing that are gonna get you to the interview. Now, my rules for resume would be very simple: it has to fit on one page, there's no way around that, I don't care who you are, it has to fit on one page. And there can be no misspellings. And third, formatting matters, in that I wanna see at least 50 percent white space on the page. Meaning, the less you have on it, the better. So those would be my three things. That would be one page, no misspellings, and the third is white space and formatting. What would you say for resumes?

 

KEITH: Action verbs. Critically important to me. And I would agree: fewer words is better. Take the resume, cut out 50 percent of the words on the -- on the page.

 

JUSTIN: People -- when they do the resume, they try and fit every single thing in. They write the same thing under every single job description, and it's like, trust me, here's the thing about your resume: actually, nobody's reading your resume. That's the dirty secret about resumes. No one's reading it.

 

KEITH: They're looking for key words that can prompt a -- a certain question.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, and that's it. And that's it.

 

KEITH: Exactly, exactly, exactly. The rest comes down to you and how you communicate that.

 

JUSTIN: 25:00 Exactly. And as quickly as possible, remove all your summer jobs selling cotton candy at the pier. People for some reason love to keep these jobs on there at the bottom as if the more jobs you had, the better.

 

KEITH: Unless you're applying to a cotton candy company.

 

JUSTIN: Unless you're doing that, cause that would show passion, that you did it when you were young, right?

 

KEITH: Because you love sweets.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, well that's it for the bonus section. Resume, here's the thing: nobody reads it, the less words the better, action verbs.

 

KEITH: I also have one thing.

 

JUSTIN: Yes?

 

KEITH: I just gave a career seminar at University of Virginia.

 

JUSTIN: Humble brag, humble brag.

 

KEITH: And -- I didn't go to Princeton like you. That's not a humble brag. By the way, UVA was my wife's safety school, so there's no bragging in there.

 

JUSTIN: Humble brag. Go ahead.

 

KEITH: They asked about cover letters, and I told them, my ideal cover letter was zero words on zero pages. No one reads -- no one reads cover letters.

 

JUSTIN: Hundred percent agree. Hate cover letters, hate cover letters, never use cover letters, don't like it at all. Too many words, too much information. Don’t like it. No to cover letters.

 

KEITH: Done.

 

JUSTIN: We agree on that. I have one other question before we leave the bonus section: this is actually, could be touchy topic, I don't know if you wanna lift the veil for us, but when you're a part-time male model, do you have to interview for the jobs, and is that more verbal, or more just kind of like how you look?

 

KEITH: Will we ever get away from this subject?

 

JUSTIN: No, no, no. But seriously, have you had to interview for a part-time male model job?

 

KEITH: No interviewing.

 

JUSTIN: Just, you send your headshot?

 

KEITH: They send it in and you show up and that's the deal.

 

JUSTIN: Is your male model -- is your part -- sorry. Your part-time male modeling headshot, is it from the neck up, or is it from the waist up, or -- you're a pretty in-shape guy. No? It's from the behind? Or what is -- what is going on here? Clothes on? Half off?

 

KEITH: I am no longer in that field currently.

 

JUSTIN: But you are open if someone needs to hire someone. You said that at the beginning.

 

KEITH: A hundred percent. I got three kids to put through college.

 

JUSTIN: I would be, too. Alright. So no tips for part-time male models out there on how to interview, right?

 

KEITH: That's not my bag.

 

JUSTIN: Alright. Well, uh, look. That's it for today's episode. Keith, thanks for coming in.

 

KEITH: Thanks for having me.

 

JUSTIN: You're welcome. Anytime. And is there anything you wanna update anyone on? Anything like, you know, businesses, kids, like, anything else, like, nothing?

 

KEITH: No, I think I'm good.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. That sounds good. And as always, we wanna thank Rob Schulte, our producer, for putting another good episode together. And that's it. We'll call it a wrap.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: How many times do you think I can make fun of Keith for being a part-time male model during this episode?

 

ROB: Oo.

 

JUSTIN: Not enough. Not enough.

 

27:54

Is something bothering you? Do you have a secret you aren't telling anyone? Is there something at work - a skill, a meeting, a formula - that you just don't understand? MR CORPO talks about how to ask for help in the workplace and encourages everyone to be more like Elsa from the Disney movie Frozen and LET IT GO! Asking for help doesn't have to be scary - in fact - it can be an opportunity to further your career if you approach it in the right way. This episode includes a BONUS SECTION encouraging you to tell your boss how annoying they are.

LISTEN HERE: 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How to Ask for Help (12/21) 

JUSTIN: Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Help!

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. This is the last podcast of 2016, because we're gonna take next week off for the holidays. But I wanted to say a quick thank you to all the listeners for all the love and support, all the shoutouts, all the passing along my book, all the passing along the podcast, everything. You've made me feel amazing. It's been an incredible year. I'm excited to get the Mr. Corpo brand up and running in 2016. And I think there's only bigger and better things coming in 2017. So thank you, a sincere thank you. I appreciate you as a listener.

 

Okay. So now that we've got that out of the way, let's talk about today's episode. Today we are gonna talk about how to ask for help. We all know the cliche, "honesty is the best policy." But I want to go beyond generalities. And I want to get specific. I want to talk about the benefits of asking for help. Oh, and we've got a super special bonus section at the end of the episode, so stay tuned for that. Okay, so let's get to work.

 

(music)

 

Is there something that you're hiding? Is there something that keeps you up at night? Is there something that you're not good at? Free yourself. Free yourself from this burden. Let go! Be honest. Ask for help. Because here's the thing: people want to help you. People like to help people. In fact, it makes people feel good to help other people. So I want you to stop being selfish, and give someone else a chance to feel good. Ask for their help. It can be big, it can be small. It doesn't matter. Free yourself. Let go.

 

I'm gonna start by sharing a personal experience. I was young, I was a senior merchant, I was three years out of college, I was a high-riser, I'd gotten a bunch of promotions really fast, I was doing a great job. Everything looked great from the outside. I walked down the hall, and I felt bulletproof. Ask me about anything, it doesn't matter. Pull me into a room, I'm there. I'm ready. I felt confident. But -- and this is a big but -- there was one thing that I just couldn't understand. It was a meeting that was called the Open To Buy (?) Meeting. It was basically a monthly financial forecast meeting. And I go into the meeting and everyone's talking about the financial forecast, and they're talking about numbers, and I was staring at this piece of paper that had thousands of numbers on it, and I had no idea what they were talking about. I literally could not find -- they would say a number, I couldn't find it on the page. I didn't even know what section of the page -- I didn't even know what quadrant of the page they were looking at. I had no idea. And it made me fee so insecure. So then what I did, I was in the meeting, and if I was getting worried that they might call on me, I would lean down and untie my shoes, and then re-tie my shoelaces. Or, another one of my favorite moves was, I actually would put my fingers in my eye and pop out my contact, have it fall into my hand, and that was good for about 60 seconds of being distracted so that no one could tell, "Hey, we can't call on Justin, he's trying to put the contact back in his eye." That was actually a move I specifically did because I was so worried someone might call on me. Popping out my own contact and then taking my sweet time to put it back in. Anything I could think of, just to avoid being called on because I was so worried and so insecure during this meeting.

 

And it wasn't just this meeting. It was the night before. All of a sudden, I would feel an anxiety. It was hours before. People are talking to me, I'm thinking about this meeting, I'm thinking about -- I might be exposed, something might go wrong. Oh my gosh, what's gonna happen in this meeting? I can't even concentrate on what's in front of me. So this was eating at me. And afterwards, I would breathe a sigh of relief and I would think, "Okay. I live to fight another day." 05:00 And I would feel good about life, bulletproof, confident in everything until 29 days later, 30 days later, when I had to do this meeting again. On and on. This is no way to live. You cannot live your life like this. And I thought, "I need to fix this." But why wasn't I? I was embarrassed. But actually it was more than that. I was scared. I thought if anyone found out I didn't know how to read the numbers, I would be seen as a fraud. Worse, I might get fired. With so much at stake, it felt like my only option was to hide this as a dark secret that no one could find out. But here's the thing: it was eating me up inside. I couldn't sleep, I was stressed, I felt insecure. It was horrible. And the thing is, I knew what was making me miserable, but I felt ashamed or incapable of fixing it. The solution was simple: I just had to ask for help.

 

So I'm sure you're wondering what happened. Well, let me tell you. In my case, I finally decided I had to fix this. I couldn't live like this anymore. I couldn't go on. And it wasn't just about me. I had direct reports who were looking up to me. They were asking me questions. They were looking to me for knowledge, and there was one part of our entire work that I just felt like, "I really hope my direct reports don't ask me about this, cause I have no idea." It was no way to go through life. So I finally asked for help. And the truth is, it was almost anti-climactic. I asked a peer who I respected. I said, "Can I steal 30 minutes of your time?" And of course they said yes. It was the easiest yes I've gotten my whole life. So we sat down and I was honest. I said, "Look. I really don't feel as confident as I want to in this meeting. It seems like you're really good at this. Can you walk me through, really slowly, and explain how you read this report?" Thirty minutes later, it was like a 5,000-pound elephant had been lifted off my shoulder.

 

And here's the thing: did you see what I did with my conversation with the person? Do you see how I introduced this idea? First, I admitted I felt insecure about something. This honesty set the tone for the whole conversation. It created a safe place. I showed my vulnerability, which invited the other person into me in an authentic way. Only the cruelest of human beings is going to attack a vulnerable person, especially if that person is asking for their help. So use this to your advantage.

 

The second thing I did was, I flattered them. I said, "You're good at this thing." I'm building them up. I'm making them feel good about themselves. Yes, you are good at this thing and I recognize that.

 

The third thing I did, after I humbled myself and built them up, I asked for their help. Not only did I humble myself, build them up. Now I'm giving them a chance to help me. A chance to show off their skills and to be a teacher. It's a win-win. You'll solve a problem. They'll feel good, like they made a difference in someone's life today. Asking for help is the answer to everything. That sounds like an overstatement, but I truly, truly believe that.

 

So here's what I want you to do. I want you to go out there. I want you to think about something that you wish you were better at. Something that you've been hiding from everybody. I'm sure you already have something in mind. Everybody does. Take action. Do it today. Start 2017 with an open mind and a clear heart. Let go. Ask for help. It's that easy. Ask someone for their help. Now look, I'm tempted to go into more examples of when or how to ask for help, but I'm gonna leave it there. I'm gonna keep it loose. So send me your questions, send me your concerns, if you feel like, "I just can't ask for help in this situation."

 

Heck, ask for my help. I'm Mr. Corpo. I have a podcast. I practically give work advice for a living! So write to mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com. Tell me what your concerns are. But really what I want you to do today: I want you to hang up this podcast. I want you to go into work. I want you to face your demons, and I want you to fix something that's been bothering you. It's probably gonna take 10 minutes or 15 minutes. And at most it's gonna take one hour, or two 30-minute sessions. And guess what? The rest of your life you won't be worried about that. Doesn't that sound good to you? So stop whatever you're doing, throw away the excuses, and get to work.

 

10:00 Alright, that is that. And this is this. And this is the bonus section. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus! Section! (clapping) I love you.

 

Hi everyone, and welcome to the bonus section of today's episode. I am actually re-recording the bonus section from Tokyo, so if this sounds different, that's because I'm recording on my Voice Memo app on the phone. I got a little bit of feedback from the producer and a few other contributors to this show that the original bonus section was a little bit too sexually explicit for the audience, so I'm re-recording this in a kinder, gentler, we'll call it a PG version of the bonus section.

 

So on today's episode, we talked about how to ask for help. And one of the elements of that is being honest. And what I wanna talk about today is a related topic. And that is: is there something that bothers you? Is there something that you wanna say to somebody, to your boss, to your co-worker, to someone that you interact with, but you haven't been saying anything, and it bothers you every time? Or there's something that this person said to you a month ago or six months ago or yesterday or this morning and it really bothered you and you're just -- it's eating you inside, you can't stand it and it's bothering you all the time?

 

I want to talk about let it go. Not the song, not the Disney song. I'm not gonna sing it. What I wanna talk about is let it go. Be honest. Talk to the person about it. It's not worth carrying this burden every day and letting it bother you. Chances are, maybe the person doesn't even know that they've offended you, or bothered you, or something's wrong. It's getting in the way of you skipping through your day, being happy, being that little bit lighter. So I don't want you to be afraid to confront somebody, ask if you can have a moment of their time, and remember what we just talked about in the episode. You can go to someone, and if you're really honest with someone and you say, "Hey, you know, can we talk for a minute?" And you get in a private room, and you say, "You know, there's something that's just been bothering me and I just wanted to get it off my chest and be open with you so that we can move forward and be positive. And if you can frame it in just the right way, this isn't intimidating, this isn't, "I'm accusing you of anything." You're just letting them know how you feel. So you wanna say, "I just wanna be honest for a second, there's been something that bothered me, and I wanted to get off my chest so that we can move forward, feel good together."

 

And with that type of framing, no one's gonna take offense. You're inviting them in, you're letting them know, and you're not accusing them of anything. And if anything, it's gonna clear the air. You're gonna feel better, they're gonna feel better. Chances are, they're feeling the same tension you are, and maybe you can't get your finger on it. And I've done this a thousand times with my bosses. I've done it with peers. If I have an argument, if something bothers me, I won't even go home that day and carry it with me. I just wanna walk right down that hall and just say, "Hey, that interaction felt a little bit difficult. It felt a little bit challenging, or it seemed like you were mad at me in that meeting. Was I reading that correctly? Was there something I've done?" And just offering that question, being honest and acknowledging that maybe something had happened, or something's going on is an invitation for someone else to say something that's bothering them that maybe they don't have the courage to otherwise say to you. As a boss, you can do this to invite your employees to be honest, share with you: what did you do that bothered them? You may not even be aware of it. But you've gotta be open so that they can feel like, "Hey, they're giving me a chance to talk about this thing and I'm gonna mention it." And guess what? If you get that feedback from someone else, you're gonna be the better for it. You're gonna be interacting with hundreds and thousands of people if your career. You better know what you do that bothers other people, otherwise you're gonna go around like, bothering everyone else. And if you've got something that someone's doing that bothers you, I encourage you to start the conversation. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Don't make it a big deal, don't schedule the time, you can put it at the end of your one-on-one meeting, whatever you wanna do. But the point is, let go of this burden. Be honest. And mention it. And just say, "Hey, I wanted to mention this so we can move on and you know, be positive together."

 

So I just wanted to share from my personal experience, don't carry this around with you. It's not gonna resolve itself. Don't be worried. No one's gonna take offense at this. They're gonna admire you and actually I've found, as we mentioned in the Keith George episode, my entire friendship with Keith was born of the fact that he walked into my room and said, "Hey, you know that thing you said earlier? I don't really agree with it and it bothered me, and I'd rather you just talk to me directly so that we can solve these things." After he did that, I looked at him and I said, "I love you." Because being honest with someone, being able to be radically transparent, that's what true friendship is, that's what true respect is, that's how you build a real, lasting relationship where you can both help each other out. 15:05

 

So the -- I felt like this topic was related to being honest, asking for help, and resolving open issues that you might be carrying around with you. So that's today's bonus section, calling in from Tokyo, first time ever, super fun. Thanks for listening.

 

Alright. We stepped out of the workplace for a moment there, but now we're coming back into the workplace. A safe place, a less treacherous place, a place I'm more comfortable giving advice. But look, I had to say that. That was on my heart. So there you go. Rob, I'm gonna end the episode. I wanna say thank you for a great year. It's been an incredible 6-month journey on this podcast. I met you eight years ago maybe? I was playing a New Years show in Iowa City, you were the opening band, your band was called Beowulf. We hit it off. We had this great time. We went to Lawrence, Kansas together. We talked a little bit. We kind of lost touch with each other. I was walking down the street in New York City. I look up on a street corner of Broadway and Houston and I say, "Rob Schulte?" And you look at me and you say, "Justin Kerr?" And I say, "What are you doing here?" And you say, "I just moved to New York City. I'm a podcast producer." And I look at you and I say, "I've always wanted to do a podcast." Fast-forward six months, here we are. We're 15, 20 episodes into the Mr. Corpo podcast. I couldn't be happier to be sitting across from you. Thank you for everything that you do. You gave me the confidence to do this. You made it sound great. I really, really appreciate you. So bigger and better things in 2017 together, alright?

 

ROB: Absolutely.

 

JUSTIN: Thank you so much. Alright. That's it from the Mr. Corpo podcast. Signing out for 2016. Good luck, everyone, in 2017. Let's get to work.

 

(music)

 

17:06

Do I give a gift? Do I not give a gift? Who do I give a gift to? Should I write a note? What should the note say? When should I give everyone the gift? Today? Tomorrow? Tuesday? Don't worry - MR CORPO has you covered - he takes all the anxiety and trepidation out of saying THANK YOU and gives you an easy step-by-step approach to saying thank you in a meaningful, personal, and easy manner. Plus in the BONUS SECTION he shares his Mom's super awesome Starbucks trick. There may or may not be a SUPER SECRET BONUS SECTION in this episode - I guess you'll just have to wait and listen.

LISTEN HERE:

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

How to Say Thank You (12/14)

JUSTIN: I just called to say I love you. I just called to say how much I care. I just called to say I love you, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. That was my rendition of the wonderful Stevie Wonder song, "I Just Called To Say." And you'll notice that I was talking about calling to say you love someone, calling to say you care. Calling to let them know you mean it from the bottom of your heart. These are all different things, while not exactly using those words, these are all things that I would like you to use in today's topic, which is how to say thank you.

 

Let's talk about how to say thank you. There's a million reasons to say thank you. But for the purposes of today's podcast, I wanna focus on just one occasion: the end of the year thank you. So let's get to work.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Now, navigating the end-of-year circus with all of its parties, all of its presumptions, all of its formalities, can be very tricky. Do you give a gift? Do you not give a gift? Who do you give a gift to? Who do you not give a gift to? What do you give as a gift? It's already too overwhelming and too complicated. So my advice is, do not give a gift. That way, you skip over all the political land mines and all of the traps that are out there that you could fall into. And as always, I'm in favor of keeping it simple. And in this case, that means just saying thank you.

 

Now, even though I just want to keep it simple, saying thank you can be a bit more complicated than you might think. So let's break it down into three parts: who do you thank, how do you thank them, when do you thank them. Alright, so let's start with who do you thank. The easy answer is, everyone. The only problem is, that can lead you to a generic solution: an e-card, a general email, something that you just buy and write your name on it. That doesn't count. And once you pass into this generic territory, you shouldn't even bother because it has no meaning. My advice? When it comes to who, less is more. Now, if you're a boss, I recommend that you give thank you to your immediate direct reports. Not the entire team. Let your direct reports honor their people. Just focus on your direct reports. And sure, you can give a big, verbal group thank you at your team meeting. But I would say, if you're gonna make it personal, stick with your direct reports.

 

Now, if you wanna go beyond the direct reports, I recommend you reach out to two to three other absolutely critical people you work with outside your team. the reason I say two to three is, I want it to be really special. And I want you to really think about it: who is so essential to your well-being in the workplace? It should only be two or three people. Focus on those two or three people outside your team. So my prescription is, direct reports plus two to three most important people. That's if you're a boss.

 

Now, if you're just an employee I want you to focus on the people immediately around you. Physically and emotionally. Don't feel pressure to thank everyone on the team. This is gonna lead you to that generic trap. Nobody wants to go there, okay? And of course, you wanna thank your boss. This goes for everyone. Everyone has a boss. Make sure that you thank your boss. And when we get into the section about how, we're gonna talk about all the different approaches depending on how much you like someone or how much you like your boss. I have a very prescriptive formula on how to give a thank you note to your boss if you do not like your boss. It's important to know how to do this.

 

Alright, so the key to thinking about who you're gonna thank is very simple: less is more. Because as you'll see, our goal is to make it personal, and you can't do that if you're writing a thank you note to everyone. So we've talked about the who, now let's talk about the how. And the how is probably more important than the who, or even the when. So listen up. When it comes to how to thank someone, the most important thing is to make it personal. One way to make it personal is to talk to the person directly. This can't help but be person because you're literally standing right in front of the person talking to them. 05:05 \

 

Now, the only thing is, this can be hard. And not just for you, the giver of the compliment, it can also be hard for the recipient. Unfortunately, and I emphasize unfortunately, we as humans and working Corpos, we're not great at saying thank you. We're great at taking things for granted. We're great at taking people for granted. But we aren't so great at recognizing and acknowledging our gratitude. I mean, think about Thanksgiving. We have one day a year where we're practically forced, under peer pressure, of going around the table to name even one thing that we're thankful for. And think about how awkward that feels in that moment. You're wracking your brain, you're trying to think of something you're thankful for. It's just not naturally part of our day-to-day existence. But we have to keep that in mind. And so it's for all of these reasons and many more that I actually don't recommend that you say your thank you. I actually recommend that you write your thank you. Okay.

 

Now, before I get into talking about why you write your thank you note, or how you make your thank you note, I wanna talk about a few other traps that come along if you decide to say your thank you. One of these traps is, think of that awkward moment when you're gonna have a prolonged eye contact. You know that moment. You're trying to say something meaningful to someone else, they lock eyes with you, you lock eyes with them. Who's gonna break eye contact, and all of a sudden, is this a meaningful moment? Are we looking deep into each other's eyes? It can get pretty awkward pretty quickly.

 

The second thing I would point out: the danger, some of the traps of saying thank you in person. The recipient might not know how to take the compliment. And they might be embarrassed. And your purpose is not to embarrass someone else or create an awkward moment. That's not at all what you're trying to do. So that's another reason to be careful. Now, you might also be tempted, if you're talking to this person, you might be tempted to go quickly or push through the situation and just say, "Thanks -- I just wanna say thanks for the year," or, "Thanks so much, this is great," "Okay, I can see maybe I'm wasting our time," or they're worried, so you rush through your thank you. The problem with that is you don't really get to say what you mean. Your thank you might just become white noise, like all the other meaningless small thanks that we say out of habit every day. "Thanks for holding the door." "Thanks for making my coffee." "Thanks for returning the report on time." "Thanks for sending the email." It just becomes white noise, and even though your goal is to make this, hey, this is a great thank you for the whole year, it might just come off as just one of these other generic thank yous and then there's no power behind it. Our goal is to make this a moment. A real, honest-to-goodness, real thank you.

 

To do that, I think you should write it down. Now, here's why I'm a big proponent of writing thank yous. Writing down your thank you has a few inherent advantages. Number one, it's physical. You can give it. People can keep it. They can re-read it. They can share it with other people: their boss, their wife, their parents, whoever it may be. And each time they see it, whether it's in their drawer, whatever the case is, they'll be reminded of you and they'll be reminded of the good things you had to say about them. This is all to your benefit.

 

Now, the number two reason that I think writing has some advantages is, it gives you a chance to articulate yourself clearly. Giving a compliment or saying thank you might be awkward for everyone involved, as we've already discussed. Plus, you might not say what you actually mean. There's too much pressure in that moment. But if you're writing something down, there's a lot less pressure. You can do a rough draft, you can just go with your instinct and write it down. But for a lot of people, that's gonna be easier.

 

The number three reason I like to prescribe to this idea of writing a thank you note is: it's inherently very personal to see and read someone else's handwriting. Especially in today's digital, tweeting, texting, how-dare-you-call-me-and-leave-a-voicemail world, there's something more meaningful to handwriting a thank you and sharing a little bit of yourself, something that's a little bit more personal. There's no two handwritings that are exactly the same. And don't be afraid to cross something out. In the middle of your letter, in the middle of your card, cross out a word, cross out a misspelling. This will do even more to make it personal. So don't worry about being perfect. This is about being personal.

 

Now, when it comes to what you should say in the note, there's three rules that apply. Number one, keep it simple. I call this the "less is more" rule. Number two, be specific. Number three, make it personal. Alright, the first rule, less is more. It should be obviously, I'm not even gonna talk about it.

 

Second rule, be specific. When you go eat at someone's house, you don't say to the host or the hostess, I liked everything, thank you. 10:00 That's too generic. You pick something super specific and you say, "I loved the green beans. That sauce you put on it was absolutely incredible." Do you see what I did there? I made it specific. I made it meaningful. And now it counts for something. So the same applies to your thank you. Generic doesn't count. Be specific. Now, the third rule is, make it personal. Reveal something about yourself, or admit something to them. This will draw your audience in. It'll make them see you differently, it'll make them feel closer to you and connected to you. You might even draw on experience that you had earlier in the year. There might have been something that really was meaningful to you. A compliment they gave you. A boost in self-confidence. An opportunity for a project. Don't be afraid to go back over the last year and draw on that experience, and re-highlight it. You may have even already said thank you, but use this as an occasion to bring that back up. Because the point is, if you go back in time and remind them, what you're saying to them is, that was truly meaningful. Even now, one month later, two months, three months, six months, nine months later, I'm still thinking about how great that is.

 

And finally, if you don't really like your boss, or your direct report, my advice is to still give them a card, but keep it super, super, super short and sweet. I would say something like, "Good luck in 2017. Justin." You've done your duty. You did the right thing. You gave 'em a thank you note. But you also stayed true to yourself. That a win-win.

 

Now, when it comes to the when of this thank you, it should be obvious for the reason that I'm putting out this podcast today. You need to say thank you now. You can't wait until after Christmas. You can't wait until it gets too close to Christmas. Cause here's what's gonna happen: you're gonna have this card in your drawer, you're gonna be waiting for the perfect moment to give it to your boss, that perfect moment's never gonna come, and then all of a sudden they ducked out before lunch and you thought they were gonna be there. And guess what? Now you didn't give them a thank you note before the end of the year. Now you're a sucker. Everyone else did it. Now you're a loser. Alright?

 

Now, here's the thing: if you give a thank you note after Christmas, it's worth 75 percent less than if you did it before the holidays. So don't screw this up. Go home, write your thank you notes this weekend. Leave them on everyone's desk on Tuesday, alright? Not Monday. Monday's too busy, everyone's back from the weekend, your thank you notes are gonna get lost in the shuffle. Put them on their desk on Tuesday. That gives you the rest of the week to have a positive acknowledgement of the note, and also to catch up with everyone. Now that's how to say thank you.

 

Now, having said all that, that's my prescription for saying thank you. But I am gonna admit, earlier today in the office I saw one of my co-workers, Nick, who was on the second episode. He actually went out right before lunch and he went to the liquor store and he bought everyone a bottle of alcohol and then because he has really good interpersonal skills, he was able to walk up to each person, casually at their desk, give them some alcohol, and he engaged in a meaningful conversation with each person as he gave them the alcohol, and in general used this as a moment to show a connection, to say he's grateful for the work, and different things like that. So, my prescription, I try to point out some of the benefits and the downfalls of talking in person versus writing things. You can make the choice for yourself. Of course, it's gonna depend on your interpersonal relationships with other people and the team members. But I wanted to give you a lot of options, and I also wanted to acknowledge, Nick gave me a bottle of alcohol today as he left, so shoutout to Nick, thanks for the great, uh, Veuve Clicquot. And for anyone else that wants to give me gifts, Veuve Clicquot is a good thing.

 

But that brings me to my bonus section. Bonus! Section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! (clapping) I love you! Bonus section! Splash!

 

Alright, shoutout to my mom for today's bonus section. She taught me this. And this is the power of the five dollar Starbucks gift card. Tips are awkward. You and your girlfriend can have a disagreement over how much you should have tipped someone. But you know what no one can argue with? A five dollar gift card to Starbucks. Everybody loves Starbucks. Except Nick Grover. Nick Grover hates Starbucks. But unless you're a total coffee snob, everybody likes Starbucks. Everyone likes something for free. And I strongly, strongly recommend you get on board with this five dollar Starbucks thing. Now, here's the thing. When in doubt, give someone a five dollar Starbucks card. 15:02 Someone did something above and beyond in the office? Give them a five dollar Starbucks card. You're out and about and someone helped you with all your bags and your groceries and you didn't expect it? Pull out a five dollar Starbucks card and throw it at 'em. They're not gonna take money. It's gonna be awkward. Maybe you don't have enough change. You can't ask someone for change. Five dollar Starbucks card -- it's right there, give it to 'em, boom, end of story. So keep 'em in your desk and then this shouldn't just be for this time of year. It should be year-round. Make it a habit of yours. Someone did something? Acknowledge it. It's such a small cost. If I told you you could make someone's day better and be the highlight of their day for just five dollars, wouldn't you do it? Of course you would do it. So take the advice of my mom, carry around some five dollar Starbucks cards, and start giving them out like candy. Alright? That's the bonus section.

 

Now, before we go today, it's a super secret bonus section. Super secret bonus section. Super secret, super. It's a super secret bonus section. We're gonna talk about gifts for a second. Now, I'm not a fan of alcohol. I did just talk about Nick giving me alcohol, and because it was a great bottle, now I'm slightly a fan of alcohol. But in general, I'm not a fan of giving other people alcohol as gifts, and I'm not even a fan of receiving it. It's kind of a lowest common denominator gift. It's kinda like, I know so little about you that I didn't know what you would like, so I just got you booze. But you know what, it's -- it's a fallback, let's call it a fallback, alright? And Nick, I did just wanna make clear, thank you for the bottle of Veuve Clicquot. I really do like it.

 

Now, when you wanna do your thank you note, pick your card carefully. It matters. You can go cheesy, go Hallmark route, and do something funny. You can create your own card and tape an image on it. You can draw something. Whatever you wanna do, remember the rules. You wanted it to be personal. You want it to be meaningful. So think about what card you're gonna use.

 

Here's another one most people miss: don't use a black pen. A black pen looks like it came off the printer. You can't see as much of the personality. So at minimum, I want you to use a navy pen, but I'd love for you to use a different colored pen, because all of a sudden this says: this must be personal. They couldn't have photocopied this. So use a colored pen for your thank you note. Most people are gonna miss that.

 

Now, I just wanted to talk about my most memorable gift. My most memorable gift was, I made for Jenny Ming, who is the CEO, I made her a oversized thank you note. It was gigantic. And I cut it out of a piece of cardboard, and I just hand-wrote on it a simple note. And said, thank you. And she still has that on her desk eight years later. I just ran into her. She still remembers me as the person who gave her the oversized thank you card. So make it stand out in the crowd. Do something a little bit different. Cut up a big piece of paper. Do something a little bit strange. Surprise them. Make it personal.

 

The other thing I did was -- I'm not sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing, I'd have to let the team kinda tell you, but I was super into watercoloring at one point, and I did a watercolor character or each team member, and gave them basically like, a painting or a drawing of each of them with a funny phrase on it. Now, there are a thousand things that can go wrong in that scenario, but in this scenario, I think it actually worked because I'd worked with the team for a long time and I kept it light and fresh. And again, it was personal to each one of them. The quote had been something that we said to each other, or an inside joke. So it was some type of shared experience I was drawing upon.

 

So when it comes to gifts at the holidays, again, I like to avoid gift altogether. I really want to make sure you find a way to say thank you, whether that's in person, whether that's through a handwritten note, whether that's the default of a bottle of alcohol, make sure you say thank you. Okay?

 

Now, before we leave today, I wanna talk about one more thing. Last week on the show we talked about how to manage up. And in the bonus section, we talked about: make sure you do not try and go over your boss's head. This is not managing up, I think I said, this is shooting yourself in the foot. Well, I got some feedback from some of our listeners. And one listener in particular asked me a question and they said this: "Dear Mr. Corpo, I listened to your episode talking about managing up and the idea of people going over the boss's head. Has this ever happened to you and what did you do about it?"

 

Great question. Thanks, anonymous writer. It has happened to me multiple times and here's what you want to do. First, don't overreact. There's nothing to be gained in the moment. You can't try and make a scene, and there's too much emotions at stake, so I don't like to do things right in that moment. 20:00 And then, the way you're gonna handle this is gonna be dependent on what type of relationship do you have with this person? So this person in my case was a direct report. But depending if I had a good relationship with that direct report or a bad relationship, that's gonna kind of give me two different paths I'm gonna go down on dealing with someone who tried to go over my head. Now, what I wanna do in either case, though, is you wanna sit down with this person and you wanna acknowledge that you know what they did. So I literally sat down with someone and I said, hey, you know, do you have a minute? You know, let's sit down, let's talk for a second. And I literally said, hey, I noticed, you know, yesterday in that meeting you were trying to go over my head and -- and you know, curry favor with the vice president. I'm just kind of curious, you know, what was behind that? Like, what were your driving -- or, what do you want to accomplish with that?

 

And you see what I did? One, I acknowledged, you're not as clever as you think you are. Two, I acknowledged, I'm pretty clever cause I noticed this. And then three, I've now put all the pressure on the other person to articulate in a pretty harmless way, "Hey, what were you hoping to accomplish, or what were you thinking here?" All the pressure is on them to have to explain themselves, versus me lecturing or saying, "Hey, please don't talk to my boss. Please talk to me." That's gonna sound insecure. That's gonna sound like you're worried about something. But if you say, "Hey, I saw you doing this. Why did you do it? I thought we had a great relationship, I'm always looking out for you, you know, what was behind it, because I wanna understand, cause I wanna help you get to where you wanna go." And you also wanna reinforce to the person, that's not the way to do it. There's a reason you didn't bring up that topic, or there was a reason you were waiting for that. And you wanna share that with them. Be radically transparent. In my case, I kinda called him on it, asked why did they do it, I understood why they did it, and I said, "Listen, I understand that. But I gotta tell you, be careful, because I was lining up the other three people to support you in this promotion, and now you've just hurt your chances in that."

 

So again, use it as a teaching moment. It's not acsusational. But again, put the pressure on them to have to explain themselves. The less you're talking, the more they're talking, the more they can learn from it, the more they can take responsibility for the situation. So, I'll use that as my "Ask Mr. Corpo" section. Keep the questions coming. I'll be interested to know if everyone agrees with me on the thank you notes, the alcohol, and everything else.

 

So without further ado, let's hit the outro. Forlorn Hope Wines (?), yay. You know what? Forlorn Hope Wines. Go onto the Forlorn Hope Wines website, use Mr. Corpo discount, and send your team wine. Forget about everything I said. Everyone should send Forlorn Hope Wines as a gift to their team. You get 15 dollars off when you use the Mr. Corpo discount. So go ahead, give wine as your gift this year. It's my gift to you.

 

ROB: Mine's not out, though.

 

JUSTIN: Uh, yeah. Something like that. Okay. And you just heard Rob, my awesome producer. Rob, let me just say, thank you for another great episode. I really appreciate what you did. And specifically, because I wanna make this personal, I wanted to say that your Kansas City Royals sweatshirt really made me feel comfortable during the podcast today, because it's got great colors, and it feels kinda cozy. And so it made me feel comfortable opening up in front of you, and opening up to our listeners. So thanks for wearing that sweatshirt, Rob. And otherwise, hit us up on the social channels. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and email us your anonymous questions at mrcorpopodcast@gmail.com.

 

Now, get out there and say thank you to somebody. Oh my gosh, I almost forgot to mention, this is super cool, but Mr. Corpo podcast was featured on the Spotify homepage as the featured buzz-worthy podcast. We were right next to Lana -- Lana -- Lena -- Lina? Lena Dunham and her Women of the Hour podcast. So we're right up there getting up with the big boys and the big girls. Oh, you know, whatever that means. No intention physically, I meant just like, in terms of their impact on the world, big boys and big girls and all those things. So super excited. Rob, the producer, hooked that up. Shoutout to Spotify, thanks for featuring us. It's our first feature. Rob, is there any other big news. I can't think of anything. No, let's just be happy with the Spotify news. Alright, that's it. Over and out. 24:25