MR CORPO PODCAST

Do you write good emails? Do you get in email fights? Mr. Corpo breaks down the do's and don'ts of writing perfect emails, getting replies, and how to win an email fight. He also explains why you should never use EOD, why you should always REPLY ALL, and why 4:36 is the perfect time for a deadline. Bonus section includes Mr Corpo pontificating on his theories about attachments. Plus - new music by Jetskiis.

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How To Write An Email (9/28/2016)

JUSTIN: An email walks into a bar. Ouch! 

(Intro music)

JUSTIN: Hi. Welcome back to another episode of Mr. Corpo podcast. Today I wanna talk about email. Email, email, email. I love email so much that I wrote a book about how to write an email. I love email so much that this week, I worked an entire day at the office in New York City, then I got on an airplane, and I flew to San Francisco. I arrived at midnight. I woke up the next day. I went to DocuSign headquarters, and then I went to Airbnb headquarters, gave talks about how to write an email to hundreds of people. And then I got back on the plane, flew back to New York, and went back into the office today 24 hours later. That's how much I love email. And you should, too. So let's talk about email. 

(music)

JUSTIN: It started simple enough. You sent out an email to your co-workers. You told them a project was due the end of day, Thursday. And then all of a sudden someone replies and says, hey, where do I save this file? And someone else replies and says, "Does end of day Thursday mean end of day, or is seven o'clock okay?" And then someone else replies and says, "Is it okay if I turn it in on Friday?" And then someone else says, "Hey, what format do you want all this information in?" All of a sudden, it's been 36 hours, and no one's even gotten any work done. 

This is a problem. This is your fault. You needed to be more clear with the instructions you gave everybody. And your first mistake was saying "end of day". Never use "end of day". "End of day" is like white noise. "End of day" is like someone walking up to you in the hallway in the morning and saying, "Hey, how's it going?" And then you stop, you kind of turn around to answer them, they've already walked right past you. It doesn't mean anything. It's just general corporate gobblety-gook. And so I don't want to you to ever use end of day as a deadline. Here's what I want you to do instead. I want you to send that email, and I want you to say, "Due at 4:36 PM." Why 4:36? No reason. It doesn't matter at all. But the point is, you need to break the norm. You need to break the code. You need to move it two degrees to the left to get that little bit of unexpected attention. And here's what's gonna happen. People are gonna go, "Whoa, Justin, he's such a weird guy." 

And then here's what else is gonna happen. They're gonna reply to you at 4:32 and they're gonna think they're really funny and they're gonna say, "Hey Justin, I'm replying, it's 4:32 PM." And guess what? They think they're hilarious, but the point is, I got what I needed from them on time. And the reason I did is cause I used a little bit left of center to get their attention and to get them to think about, okay, he must have a reason he needs this due. So that's just a really quick hint about how to write better emails and get what you need from people on time. Never use "end of day." Alright, that's the quick hit right off the top of the show. 

(music)

JUSTIN: You know, as I've been touring around the country with my book, talking at big companies, small companies, I'm always sure to point out the fact that I've never worked past 5 PM in 16 years of corporate America. Now, the only way you're gonna do that is if you are super, super efficient with your time. In fact, I like to call myself an efficiency monster. It sounds kind of braggadocious, but I think it's kind of gotten a nice ring to it. 

But anyway, that's beside the point. The point is, I wanna help you get in and get out of work so you can get on with your life. And one of the common things I find that people have trouble with is making sure people reply to their emails. Not only on time, like we just talked about. But also making sure you get all the answers you need. How many times have you written an email to your boss, you had three questions in the email, and your boss replies with only one answer? It's super frustrating. You get mad at them, you think it's their fault, but the point is, it's not their fault. It's your fault. You didn't write a good enough email. 

So what I wanna do right now is break it down for you and tell you how to write the perfect email. I will guarantee you can call me, you can write me, you can do whatever you want, I guarantee this will get you three answers to your three questions. Alright? Do I have your attention? Here we go. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Pull up the email. Pull up the subject line, and write three things. Don't write the word "three,"05:02 write the number 3, and then the word "things." Alright, let's go into the body of the email. Hi boss, comma, three things. Again, use the number 3. Don't write the word "three." After three things, I want you to hit return, hit return again. Creating that white space is really important. We want there to be breathing room. The design of the email is important. Then I want you to write the number 1. Not the word "one," but the number 1. Hit return, and then I want you to write a two-word subject line. It can't be a full sentence, it can only be two or three words. Then I want you to hit return, hit a bullet point, and then in two sentences, you need to write the key point. 

So, for example, if you write the number 1, the subject line might be "Gene's project." Or the subject line might be "Vacation schedule." And then you put your pertinent question right underneath that. After the bullet point, hit return, write the number 2, hit return, put your subject, hit return, put your bullet point, on and on we go. And you see what we've done? All of a sudden we've hit your boss with five times to queue them that you have three questions. The subject line says three, the first sentence of the email says three, then the number 1, the number 2, the number 3. 

Do you think there's any chance your boss replies to that email with only one answer? No way. You're gonna get all three answers you need. You can get in, get out, and get on with your life. So that's how to write a perfect email. 

(music)

JUSTIN: We better give you a break. I feel like I just dropped a lot of knowledge on you. Once again, our show today is brought to you by Forlorn Hope Wines. And you've heard me talk about the founder, Matt, ad nauseum. I've talked about how good-looking he is, I've talked about how you can find out his phone number and how you should crank call him, but I think we haven't talked enough about his wines. So let me just talk about his wines for a second. He makes small-batch, super interesting, off-kilter varietals. This stuff is -- sometimes it's 20 cases, sometimes it's 100 cases. The point is, if you're not on his email list, this stuff sells out in about 24 hours or 48 hours. And it's all a little bit funky and interesting. So if you walk into a restaurant, you order Chardonnay, don't order Forlorn Hope Wines. If you're semi-interesting, even remotely interesting, if you've ever had any taste buds in your mouth, order Forlorn Hope Wines. Use the discount code MRCORPO, all capitals, no spaces. And you're gonna get 15 dollars off any purchase with three bottles or more. So check it out, forlornhopewines.com, it's fantastic stuff, it's pretty much all I drink. And if you don't know, now you know. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Alright, while we're talking about email, there's two more topics I wanna cover. One of them is reply all. And the other one is email fights. So let's do reply all first. 

(music)

JUSTIN: This is a hot topic for most people. And it's kinda split right down the middle. I talk to a lot of people and they say, "Never reply all. Always split it off into small groups." Well, I'm here to tell you I completely disagree with those people. I think you should always reply all. And here's the reason: if you break it off into a separate group, the rest of the group is wondering if you ever replied to the email. You're also causing confusion, cause now half the group knows what the answer is, and the other half doesn't. So my thing is, you should always reply all, because it's a chance for you to show you've got good information, you reply on time, you're a trustworthy person. And everyone knows you close the loop. So take it from me, always reply all. It's that simple. 

Now, let's talk about email fights. Have you ever been caught in an email fight? Have you ever looked around and everyone's looking at their computer and going, "Oo, email fights!" It's kind of like a schoolyard fight, you know, everyone's kinda getting in a circle wanting to watch what happens. You will never win an email fight in email. It is impossible. So what you need to do is get up from your desk, walk up to that other person, whoever it is, even if you don't like them, this is the only thing you can do. You walk over to their desk and you say, "Hey, what should we do about this? How do we resolve this?" 

When you get in front of someone, it's a human-to-human interaction. And all of a sudden, all their bluster, all of their posturing is gonna go away, and they'll just help you solve the issue. But then here's the important thing: you've gotta go back to your desk, you've gotta hit reply all, and you've gotta tell everyone, 10:00 "Hey everybody, I just talked to Rob, everything's all set, here's what we agreed on, here's how we're moving forward." 

Now, let me tell you, the rest of your office is gonna be super disappointed. They were really hoping to watch an email fight. You need to show people that, hey, I don't get in email fights. I can resolve any issue, and I'm a really good person to work with. So that's the only way to handle an email fight. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! Here we are in the bonus section. And I wanna talk about email a little bit more. We're gonna talk about attachments. I've got two things to say about attachments. First of all, when you send an email, don't you dare send an email that has no information in the email itself and just has an attachment. That is super, super annoying. I operate on the assumption that no one will ever even open the attachment. And think about this: most people are reading your email on their little mobile devices. So it's really doubtful that they can even open the attachment or see it. So what I wanna tell you is, always make sure that your email has all the pertinent information in the body of the email. Don't rely only on the attachment, alright? That's the first thing I wanna say about attachments. 

The second thing I wanna say is, make sure you format your attachment for printing. There's a special place in hell for anyone who sends an email that doesn't have the attachment formatted to print. You know what I'm talking about. You get the attachment, you open it up, you send it to the printer, and you go to pick it up, and it's in size 17 font, it's on eight pages, and you gotta go back to your desk, and you have to format it yourself. I hate this. So be careful. Check the formatting, make sure it's ready to print. Alright. I think I just changed your life. 

And that's it for today's show. I could keep going on this email topic forever, I mean trust me: I wrote a book, and the title was How To Write An Email. You can't possibly understand the pressure I feel every day at work, being the guy who literally wrote the book on how to write an email. So I have to spend so much more time and so much more energy to make sure this thing is right. So listen, I hope these were helpful points. I could go on for another hour on this podcast, or you could just go to Amazon.com, buy my book, and pick up all the other tips and tricks I've got in there. Now, before we go, I of course wanna say thank you to my super fantastic producer, Rob Schulte. Rob, give a quick shoutout. 

ROB: Thank you. 

JUSTIN: Was that for me or our listeners?

ROB: Both. 

JUSTIN: Oh, good answer. Alright. Hit me up on the social channels. I'd love to hear from you. Hit me at Twitter at Mr_Corpo. Or you can find me on Instagram at JDKJDKJDKJDK. That's JDK four times. Now, on the way out today, I'm gonna leave you with a new track from one of my favorite bands in San Francisco, Jet Skis. This song is called Midnight Kawasaki Ride. 

ROB: I think it's actually Moonlight. 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay. Uh, alright everybody. Leaving you with Jet Ski's Moonlight Kawasaki Ride. That's a better version of that song, I think. 

(song)

18:43 

 

 

Mr. Corpo interviews Mauri Skinfill and talks about why she quit being a professor at UC Berkeley, how she became a rock star, and the burdens of being really really smart. Plus music by The Blacks.

 LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 My Wife Is A Rock Star (Literally) (9/21/2016)

 JUSTIN: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Mr. Corpo podcast. We're recording live in New York City, and I have a special guest on the show today: my wife, Mauri Skinfill.

 

MAURI: Hi, guys.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, I didn't cue you yet to start talking.

 

MAURI: Hi, guys.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, well, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

 

MAURI: Thank you.

 

JUSTIN: Rob, have you already played the theme music?

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Most people work for a living. And then -- let me finish -- and then they go on to do the thing that they're passionate about. But in the case of Mauri Skinfill, she started out doing the thing she was passionate about, and now you work for a living. So you've actually kinda got things backwards. You're super smart, you got your undergraduate at Berkeley, you got your PhD at Berkeley, you're super passionate about teaching --

 

MAURI: Go bears.

 

JUSTIN: And you had some funny things happen to you on the way to becoming a teacher. But ultimately, tell me why -- if teaching is your passion -- why did you stop teaching?

 

MAURI: The money. So I was in charge of, um, a class of 300 students, lecture class, plus five TAs, which is a lot of responsibility. Um, yep. For a semester. And I was making, monthly, 50 dollars a month less than California unemployment pays you.

 

JUSTIN: So I'm asking for -- I don't know, even, what that is. So like, give me a number. Like, what did you make a month, what did you make a year? I wanna know the salary.

 

MAURI: I -- so I had to -- I'd have to go back and look, but I think it was something like, um, 11 or 1200 dollars a month.

 

JUSTIN: So if I'm gonna do some quick math, as a professor at Berkeley, you're gonna make less than 30,000 dollars a year?

 

MAURI: No, so to be -- to -- to -- so, to be fair, that was teaching one class. Most, what you could make would have been something like, you know, 22, 2300 bucks a month. If you were teaching a full course load.

 

JUSTIN: I'm -- I'm shocked at how low that number is.

 

MAURI: Right? So you can see my temptation to go into the private sector.

 

JUSTIN: Well, was that just the -- the Cal system, or did you try and teach other -- other places, like what is -- what did that --

 

MAURI: No, I -- so, first of all, I was lucky to teach at Berkeley, because uh, you know, it's an incredible university, and the students are amazing, and the faculty is incredible, and the -- and the work that you're teaching is uh, you know, is done at a really elevated level. So um, that part, you know, felt great and was like a privilege. But um, part -- it's public school. So um, there're just certain tiers of um, basically there're fixed amounts that they can pay, um, at different levels of uh, of teaching. So...

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh. I guess nobody should ever become a teacher.

 

MAURI: Well, I think mostly people aren't, right? I mean, it's tough.

 

JUSTIN: So then who becomes teachers? Who sticks with teaching? I mean, if you're only making 25,000 dollars a year, I feel like you're not getting the smartest or the brightest or like, the best teachers, cause the best teachers wanna make more money than that.

 

MAURI: Yeah, I mean look, I -- so, I'll say something controversial, which is, but you felt this at Berkeley: um, you got a lot of kids that came from um, really wealthy families, because they could afford to be there. And so they're not --

 

JUSTIN: The teachers, you're talking about.

 

MAURI: Uh, graduate students, for example. So if you could -- if you come in as a graduate student, you know, one of the things that happens is you take a full course load and then at year two or three they give you, um, teaching responsibilities. Uh, and then if you're -- if you come in like I did as a -- a scholarship kid, um, then you forego your scholarship and you just live on your teaching wages. But the teaching wages are crap. So that's where it starts to get um, sort of gnarly. So either you take out student loans, or you have personal resources, you know. Even tenure track professors coming in at Berkeley, um, the first couple of years are not making a lot of money. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: Wow, alright. Well, you're blowing me out of the water with that. Um, now, listen. I'm not a big fan of the setup question, or you know, like I'm a talk show host where we've prepared the questions before. But I do wanna ask you a leading question. I've heard like -- late at night, or you've alluded to stories about a time that you applied for a job, um, as part of the African American studies at another university somewhere in the United States. And you were about to get the job and you didn't get the job. Can you tell us about that experience?

 

MAURI: Yes. Um, to clarify, I actually did got -- get the job, and then it got taken away.

 

JUSTIN: So actually even worse. So you had the job and it was taken away.

 

MAURI: So I -- yeah. I had the job. I signed the contract. Um, so --

 

JUSTIN: You signed the contract?

 

MAURI: Oh yes, I did.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay, I didn't know that.

 

MAURI: Um, yeah. So you know, the background of this is um, I had, uh, I was getting a degree, PhD in American literature and my emphasis was in um, modern American -- 19th and 20th century American and also African American, um, specifically. Um, and so...05:06 but you know, this was around 2000, so it felt like early days of the internet and so communication was still very kind of rudimentary, and there was not a ton of transparency around who you were. So um, I was coming out of Berkeley, uh, I was lucky, I had, you know, a bunch of publications, and so I would get, um, uh, a lot of job interviews, um, at really great places. But often I think people, one, thought I was a man, because my name is Mauri, so they didn't automatically assume there was a woman behind the application. Um, and then I think because I had so many publication in African American, um, topics, I think they also thought I was African American. Um, so they got sort of a double surprise when I would walk in the door cause I'm not. Um, but I uh, was a finalist for a job. I got a -- a finalist for a job at um, this great university in Detroit, and um, it was a position in African American stud -- uh, literature and urban studies. It was incredible, actually. Um, did a couple of rounds of interviews, got flown back to do the job talk, did the job talk, got the offer on the spot after the interview from the chairman of the department. Um, flew home with a job offer in hand, signed the contract. And then --

 

JUSTIN: You were gonna take the job?

 

MAURI: Oh, yes. Absolutely I was gonna take the job.

 

JUSTIN: Move to Detroit?

 

MAURI: Move to Detroit. I mean, there was -- I was very, you know, very devoted to cultural studies. It would have been an incredible position, um, in an incredible city, right? Um, and uh...so I was stoked. But it got kicked up, uh, the chain and um, a couple weeks later I got a call from the chair of the department, said, "Listen, we have a problem. Um, and the problem is, the dean of studies basically said..." -- they asked if I was an African American candidate, and um, they had to say no. And so she declined the -- she un-approved the hire.

 

JUSTIN: So they couldn't hire a non-African American for the African American studies.

 

MAURI: For the African American studies position. And the thing is that, you know, this was at the -- you know, at the end of the 90s, identity politics was sort of dominating the university. And so if you were doing African American studies, you -- they were just making a correlation between who was allowed to teach what. And um, it wasn't the department's fault. Uh, it wasn't the dean's fault. I think -- well, first of all, it was illegal. But it's not like I could have pressed it and then ever gotten a job again. Um, an academic job again. But um, it wasn't their fault. It was that they had spent basically 50 years not diversifying their departments. Right? Cause if they had diversified their departments in advance of me showing up as a non-African American African Americanist, then it wouldn't have been a problem. They would have been like yeah, sure, great, we like your scholarship, like, this is solid. We think you'll be an asset to the department. But instead, they couldn't see that. And they were like, you guys, go back to the fucking table and hire somebody that's gonna diversify the department. So they had a point. But uh, it was a -- it was a tough time, you know, in -- it was a tough time in academics.

 

JUSTIN: And I guess you're leading the conversation here, so what did you go do?

 

MAURI: I joined a touring rock band. And I went to -- I went on a, you know, a European tour with a band as a paid touring guitar player making way more money, um, as a guitar player in an indie rock band than I did teaching. So that was sort of the beginning of a different thing.

 

JUSTIN: That sounds super cool. Who did you play with?

 

MAURI: Um, I played with a band called Preston School of Industry, which was the, uh, Pavement spinoff band. The guitar player from Pavement, right after they broke up, um, started his own band.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so I think this is interesting. Cause we're talking about how you do most things backwards. Most people start with work and go to their passion. You started with your passion and you went to work. But I think this is interesting. Most people learn to play a musical instrument when they're young, and then they give it up by the time that they get older. You didn't even start playing guitar until you got to college.

 

MAURI: That's true. I -- I came to it late.

 

JUSTIN: I mean, tell -- tell me about that. How did you pick it up -- no one starts a new instrument at the age of 20 or whatever it is, when you're in college. Like --

 

MAURI: It was later than that. I mean, I think I was like 25. No, I was twenty -- well, I was probably, I was 23. Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: You -- so you started playing guitar at 23? Why?

 

MAURI: Yeah, or 22. Something like that. It was like --

 

JUSTIN: Wait, why?

 

MAURI: Uh, well, I always loved music, so I was super, super into music, as a fan. Um, but then I had a boyfriend, um -- it's okay cause he was the worst boyfriend ever --

 

JUSTIN: I don't want to hear any more about it. It's okay.

 

MAURI: Um, but he was a guitar player, uh, or he -- actually, he wasn't a guitar player. He just -- he played guitar. And um, the way it happened 10:00 is, I walked into his apartment one day and he was playing along to the Pixies. And I was like, what's that? I was -- he was playing "Wave of Mutilation" and I was like, oh, I wanna play that. And he was like, no, it's too hard for you cause it's bar chords. And that was the beginning of everything. Cause I was so -- I was so mad, I was like, "You condescending little beast." So I pretty much went home and I had a guitar within 24 hours and taught myself how to play. And then within a year, I was in a band. And then that was that.

 

JUSTIN: How -- how long till the moment that you got mad, went home and got a guitar within 24 hours, to you're in a touring rock band going around Europe getting paid? How many years?

 

MAURI: Um, that was -- let me think about it. So, I don't know, maybe six years.

 

JUSTIN: Six years?

 

MAURI: Yeah. But that's because I was in this band -- I was in a band -- I was in a -- like, a girl rock band. Like, in a Riot Grrrl band for five -- like, five years.

 

JUSTIN: So you started playing guitar and you started a band right away?

 

MAURI: I started playing guitar and almost immediately joined a band, yeah. I basically learned how to play the live way. We toured a lot for the entire duration of that band. Um, and we did, um, you know, we did a couple of national tours on our own, we ended up doing a shed tour with Duran Duran when they did their comeback --

 

JUSTIN: Duran duran?

 

MAURI: -- in 2001. Yes.

 

JUSTIN: Wow, alright. That's super impressive. So I -- I wanna ask you this: what's it like to be really, really smart?

 

MAURI: Well, I'm assuming you're calling me really smart and that's why you're asking that -- is that what you're saying? Alright.

 

JUSTIN: Of course. I'm not asking you to pontificate on, or conjecture about someone that smart --

 

MAURI: Here's -- no, no, no -- look, I'll tell you. So I had the benefit of like, both, I think like, um, I -- by instinct, like, I was smart growing up when I was little. And -- and it was something that like, I really valued. I always loved learning. I think I'm at my best when I'm learning something new. Which is why I feel like when I left, um, when I left teaching and started playing in a band, it was not different. It was just a different love, right? Like, a love for a different kind of learning and a different kind of skill and a different kind of expression. Um, what's it like to be smart? Uh, it's great. It, um, for a long time it made it hard to meet people, like, romantically.

 

JUSTIN: Cause you were like, asking them, like, math questions on the first date, or --?

 

MAURI: No. No, just because it wasn't gonna be -- often, like, it wouldn't be a fit. You know?

 

JUSTIN: So, you're in a girl band, Riot grrrl -- riot rah? -- what do I say, riot --

 

MAURI: Riot grrrl.

 

JUSTIN: Riot grrrl band in the 90's. You go on tour with Preston School. You play in some other bands in San Francisco. You and I played in a band together, we were in The Blacks together.

 

MAURI: The best band.

 

JUSTIN: Actually, that's how we met our producer, Rob, who's sitting here at the table with us. We played a New Years Eve party in Iowa City. What was the club, do you remember what it was called?

 

ROB: Picador.

 

JUSTIN: On New Years Eve -- I don't even remember what year that was.

 

MAURI: With the evangelicals.

 

JUSTIN: With the evangelicals, that was great. Anyway, we toured the country. It was incredible. I -- I absolutely loved being in a band. And I liked being in a band with you.

 

MAURI: Well and -- can I say that this is what I mean by like, uh, it took me leaving, um, teaching took me in other really amazing directions. So I don't -- I don't regret it. Like, it re -- it revealed a different world.

 

JUSTIN: No, no, no, absolutely. But -- but I guess my question is, you've played in a lot of bands. You've -- you've played tons of shows, hundreds, thousands of shows. But it hasn't necessarily been monetarily successful.

 

MAURI: No.

 

JUSTIN: You know, the records aren't flying off the shelf, forgive me for saying. But you're recorded a ton of albums, you still continue to play shows, you're making new music. My question is simply, why?

 

MAURI: Well, two things about the records not falling off the shelf -- flying off the shelf.

 

JUSTIN: I didn't say falling, I said flying. Actually, they may be falling cause they're all in our back room, but uh, I don't think they're flying, is what I said.

 

MAURI: But to be fair, in my defense, I don't write commercial music. So that isn't what it's for. Um, so I don't, you know --

 

JUSTIN: But I guess that's my question. Like, what -- what is it for?

 

MAURI: Um, it's for putting a stake in the ground for a certain kind of culture, you know? I feel like it's -- at some level, I, you know, I love punk. Um, and at -- at some level, I feel like I am a keeper of the flame of a certain culture that's -- that is disappearing.

 

JUSTIN: Um, alright. I wanna go off topic for a second. I wanna give you 30 seconds of air time to make your case for why people should vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 presidential election. Thirty seconds. Ready? Go.

 

MAURI: She's a tiger. Rawr.

 

JUSTIN: Uh, you have 20 more seconds.

 

MAURI: 15:00 Oh, come on, I gotta use the whole 30 seconds?

 

JUSTIN: Yes.

 

MAURI: Oh, okay. Um, I don't think there's ever been anybody more qualified to be president.

 

JUSTIN: Ten more seconds.

 

MAURI: I think she's the most incredible policy wonk on the planet who's gonna do an incredible job of um, leading American foreign policy and also doing amazing things for race relations.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, there it is. Mauri Skinfill, voting for Hillary Clinton. I'm not sure if you gained any votes for her with that.

 

MAURI: Doesn't matter. Have you seen 538 polls?

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Alright. For today's ad, my producers told me I was too long-winded, so we're gonna record it again. Uh, okay. For today's ad, I'd like to ask Mauri to tell us about the founder of Forlorn Hope, Matt Rorick. Mauri, what do you have to say about Matt? You met him before I did.

 

MAURI: I did, but he's also the reason you and I met. Because the night that we met, Matt was there, and kidnapped me. You probably didn't see this. Do you remember this?

 

JUSTIN: No, I didn't know this.

 

MAURI: You didn't know this?

 

JUSTIN: No.

 

MAURI: Okay, so what happened was, the way we met, as you'll recall, I was playing in a band, you hired our band to play your magazine launch party.

 

JUSTIN: Yup, I remember that.

 

MAURI: Um, afterwards, the band packed up and we went down the street to the Parkside to have drinks. And it was very late night by that point. It was -- it was after one, so we were doing last call. And I was at the bar with the band, and somebody walks up behind me, and suddenly I hear this zzzt! Um, and it's the sound of duct tape, and somebody grabs me from behind and starts wrapping my arms to my sides in duct tape. And within about ten seconds, I was completely immobilized and wrapped in duct tape. Um, and that was Matt Rorick, who then grabbed me, threw me over her shoulder -- I was drunk and laughing at this time, luckily it was somebody friendly --

 

JUSTIN: What were your friends doing?

 

MAURI: Laughing.

 

JUSTIN: You're being kidnapped and they're laughing?

 

MAURI: I'm being kidnapped in the middle of the bar at like 1:30 in the morning. But some random guy, they'd never seen him before, picks me up over his shoulder and walks out the door with me and goes over to the trunk of his car and opens the trunk of the car, as if he was gonna throw me in. I was screaming my head off. He finally put me down. Um --

 

JUSTIN: Wow, alright. Well, that --

 

MAURI: That was Matt.

 

JUSTIN: That's Matt! That's Matt Rorick, founder of Forlorn Hope Wines. So go to forlornhopewines.com, use the Mr. Corpo discount to get 15 percent off three bottles or more, and use the discount code M-R-C-O-R-P-O. That's it. Matt's a pretty cool.

 

MAURI: For a good time, call.

 

JUSTIN: And I already mentioned in the last episode that his phone number's on every cork.

 

MAURI: Yep.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, that's it for our ad. And if you don't know, (together with Mauri) now you know.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: Alright, and welcome back for the second half of our interview. Mauri, it's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

 

MAURI: Thank you for -- thank you for having me.

 

JUSTIN: We've talked about you as a professor. We've talked about you as a touring rock star. Tell us, where are you today? Like, what's going on in your life today?

 

MAURI: Uh, well I play in a band. Um, called Rich Girls. Which is a name I regret daily, but there it is. And uh, I do that by night. By day, I work as a consultant for a whole bunch of different agencies doing different kinds of brand work.

 

JUSTIN: And what's life as a consultant like?

 

MAURI: It's the best. Uh, I get up, I sit at the computer. I'll do work for -- I'll check mail and see like, what's on the calendar for the day and what the deliverables are, and then I'll start working. And then -- actually, that's not true. The first thing I do is, I check the New York Times. But after I've read the New York Times for about 20 minutes, then I will start working.

 

JUSTIN: (snoring sound)

 

MAURI: No -- this is what happens. Then I'll work for like two hours, and then I'll go get coffee, and then I'll come back and work some more.

 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh, that sounds so boring. Okay.

 

MAURI: I don't think that's any different from what you do, except that you have like a bunch of people pulling at your like coat tails all day.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. There's people, there's interactions, there's things happening, there's drama, there's tears. There's cheering.

 

MAURI: No, no, no. I'm -- yeah, there's cheering. No, I'm more like, you know, consultative ninja, where someone's like, fix this problem. And then I'll fix the problem.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, well -- well, I guess, I'm -- look, I'm glad for you. I'm glad you like what you do, I think that's fantastic, you've had a great journey, a great adventure so far. If you were to talk to your younger self, or let's imagine there's young girls out there listening to Mr. Corpo podcast, trying to get ahead in the world, make something more of themselves, you know. What piece of advice do you have for them?

 

MAURI: So what I would say is, always say yes. So start from a place of yes. So if there's an opportunity that comes up, and maybe it's like something you don't totally know how to do, or maybe it's something you do know how to do but it looks really hard, say yes and do it. Like, try it. Because it will always open up either new opportunities, or it will be a learning experience um...20:00 you'll develop skills. Even if it turns out that you're bad at something, you will learn from the fact that you're bad at this particular thing and it might lead you to a different direction. So I think a project comes up, a job comes up, something unexpected comes up, and it's someone asking you to try something, do it. Um, that doesn't mean say yes and don't ever get compensated for your work. I just mean, start from a disposition of like, interesting, let me see how to make this happen.

 

JUSTIN: There it is. Just say yes. Normally we like to do a bonus section on this show, but I'm gonna say retroactively, that was the bonus section. So normally, we do the bonus section cheer before the bonus section, but I wanna do it after. So, bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Special guest, star Mauri in the bonus section, bonus section, I love you.

 

MAURI: Aw, I love you, too.

 

JUSTIN: Mauri, thanks for bringing the bonus section. Thanks for bringing the love. That almost sounded -- nevermind. But on the way out of the show today, of course I wanna thank our amazing producer, Rob, who's also your friend, Mauri, and is my friend. Rob, nice to see you.

 

MAURI: Hi, Rob.

 

ROB: Good to see you.

 

JUSTIN: You're 32, how's it going?

 

ROB: Oh --

 

MAURI: No, you're 30.

 

ROB: 32.

 

MAURI: Dang. You look like a baby.

 

ROB: Yeah, well, here I am.

 

JUSTIN: He's made it this far. Um, so Rob, thanks for producing, editing, listening, coaching, doing everything that you do. You're amazing. Um, of course, hit me up on the social channels. Twitter, Instagram, you'll find me. And as always, I like to end the show by doing some music, leaving you with something new. Um, I hadn't thought about this before, but should we leave the listeners with something from our band that we played together?

 

MAURI: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: So, how about we're gonna leave you with something from The Blacks, which was our band. Which song do you wanna play?

 

MAURI: "Raincoat."

 

JUSTIN: I don't -- that's not my favorite one.

 

MAURI: Yes. "Raincoat."

 

JUSTIN: Okay. Mauri wins. She --

 

MAURI: What's your favorite one?

 

JUSTIN: Uh, I really liked "Ammunition."

 

MAURI: Too sad.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, I like the -- oh, "Sunday Boys" -- I loved that.

 

MAURI: No, no, no, no.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, "Tiger Song"?

 

MAURI: What about "Elegant Walk"?

 

ROB: That was my favorite.

 

MAURI: "Elegant Walk"?

 

ROB: Yeah.

 

MAURI: How about "Elegant Walk"?

 

JUSTIN: No, definitely not "Elegant Walk."

 

MAURI: "Raincoat."

 

JUSTIN: Alright, raincoat it is, everybody.

 

ROB: All of them.

 

JUSTIN: At the same time.

 

MAURI: Oh, wait. No, I know. What's that one called, um, the Thai song.

 

JUSTIN: Too late, you're taking too long, we're gonna play "Raincoat."

 

MAURI: Mean, you're so mean.

 

JUSTIN: No, we're playing raincoat.

 

MAURI: Okay.

 

JUSTIN: Here you go. Enjoy.

 

(song)

 

MAURI: 25:05 Hook it up, hook it up.

 

JUSTIN: So your thing, remember how last time you were like, wandering to the TV and back?

 

MAURI: Hook it up.

 

JUSTIN: Alright. Cool.

 

ROB: Um, I'm good to go.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you just listened to The Blacks and now we've got basically a little secret track interview here. This is after the song, this is only for the diehard fans who have stuck through the whole song and didn't turn off. Which song did we listen to?

 

MAURI: "Raincoat."

 

JUSTIN: Oh, "Raincoat." If you listened all the way through "Raincoat," this is your bonus track. We've got Mauri Skinfill here, and I have a few more -- oh, we have Louisa Black. Oh, no, we have Mauri Skinfill --

 

MAURI: You can't blow my cover as an operative! What are you doing?

 

JUSTIN: We have Mauri Skinfill here, and I have a few more questions that I didn't get to ask her and now I thought about it, and I brought her back, so this is extra interview. Mauri, I have a question for you.

 

MAURI: Shoot.

 

JUSTIN: How many of the songs you write are about me?

 

MAURI: That is a good question. I would say somewhere in the vicinity of 98 percent.

 

JUSTIN: Are you serious?

 

MAURI: Yeah.

 

JUSTIN: That high?

 

MAURI: Yes.

 

JUSTIN: Tell us a little bit about your songwriting process.

 

MAURI: Um, well, it's a combination of, often I'll just start with the -- like, a sound in my head, and then I have to go figure out how to demo it on guitar, or on Garageband or whatever. Um, or often I'll just be sitting around thinking of like a concept, and then it's more, I guess, expressive. Those are the ones that are about you.

 

JUSTIN: How does the -- how does the song get in your head? Like you're sit -- you hear another song and then you -- it inspires you to wanna rip it off, or it inspires you to a different place, or you literally are sitting there and you're -- you're doing, you know --

 

MAURI: You know, it's never -- it's -- I feel like it's never quite a pure process. So sometimes I'll -- I'll hear, um, sometimes I'll hear a chord progression, like I'm listening to something and I'll hear a chord progression and I'll -- and there's a particular chord in that progression that prompts something for me. So it's never sort of a wholesale ripoff of something else. But often it'll be a response -- like a sonic response.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. I'm just thinking of that Keith Richards book, life, where he tells a story about Mick Jagger would always -- they'd be recording somewhere, he'd go out to the clubs, and Mick Jagger would come back the studio the next day and be like, I've got this great idea for a song. And he would like riff out the song, and they would write the song, they would spend days working on the song. They'd be like, this is an amazing song. And then they would all go out to the club like at -- at -- a week later. And they would hear that song already recorded and played. And it turned out, Mick Jagger had just heard the song, but he would always forget that he had heard the song, and he didn't write it himself. So --

 

MAURI: That's a good system.

 

JUSTIN: That -- that was one way to go.

 

MAURI: That's good system.

 

JUSTIN: I guess we were more popular than everyone else, you just record their song and play it louder than everyone else.

 

MAURI: Exactly. That's a -- that's a real thing, though. Because in the end, there's only 12 notes on the scale. So --

 

JUSTIN: Is that true?

 

MAURI: Yes, that's true.

 

JUSTIN: Wow, okay.

 

MAURI: And so, um, and there's only, you know, you can have major chord progressions or minor chord progressions. And they can be two, three, or four. By and large, in the -- at least in the world that I come from. And so --

 

JUSTIN: There's -- there's some kind of metaphor in there. We're all playing from the same sheet of music, or something -- you're good at metaphors. What should I say?

 

MAURI: No, no. You're -- but all songs are already written, is more the point.

 

JUSTIN: Oo. I was gonna say we're all doing the best we can with what we've got.

 

MAURI: That's definitely not true.

 

JUSTIN: You're right. I'm super slacking.

 

MAURI: Yeah, no, not you. But I mean, you know, there's some bad songs out there.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, uh, couple other quick things I wanted to ask. Who's your favorite band?

 

MAURI: Man, you nailed me on this last time. Uh, and I feel like I thought of -- I thought of a response and now I've forgotten my response again. Um --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, let me ask you another question. Who's your least favorite band?

 

MAURI: Oh, I hate The Arcade Fire.

 

JUSTIN: Why?

 

MAURI: That I'm passionate about.

 

JUSTIN: I hate them too, but why?

 

MAURI: I really -- I just feel like they're the worst, most pious, horrible, overrated, closeted Christian rock band on the planet.

 

JUSTIN: Boom.

 

MAURI: Boom.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, uh --

 

MAURI: Also, such nerds. Like, big time, like theater nerds. And it all comes out in the music, you know?

 

JUSTIN: Wow, you might get a lot of social media hate off of this.

 

MAURI: I love -- no, I love theater people. But it's different, the way they do it. I don't like it.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, be careful.

 

MAURI: I feel like it's really overblown.

 

JUSTIN: My producer comes from a theater world. So I don't wanna hear you talking smack.

 

MAURI: No, so do I. It's not -- it's fine --

 

ROB: Theater nerds suck.

 

MAURI: Yeah. They don't suck. I -- like -- I like theater nerds when they're doing theater. Musical theater, no.

 

JUSTIN: By the way, I'm not gonna let anyone put theater people in a box, because when I was in college I was an athlete, and part of your job as an athlete is to make fun of theater people. And then I got an injury in my junior year and I went out and started doing theater. And let me tell you, theater people party harder than athletes. So I refuse -- I refuse to have any smack talked on them.

 

MAURI: Also, instant -- instant karma -- instant karma, the fact that after making fun of theater people you became one.

 

JUSTIN: I thought it was kinda cool.

 

MAURI: I think so, too. Anyway, but you know who's not cool? The Arcade Fire.

 

JUSTIN: Fine, we can agree on that.

 

MAURI: Great.

 

JUSTIN: Um, I wanna hear -- I -- for some reason I wanna ask you about, like, 30:08 one of my favorite bands, probably in my top five bands.

 

MAURI: Sure.

 

JUSTIN: A Place to Bury Strangers.

 

MAURI: Oh, I love Bury Strangers.

 

JUSTIN: These guys are known as the loudest band in New York City.

 

MAURI: That's right.

 

JUSTIN: Just -- I wanna hear you riff on them, because I absolutely love them. And I love your smart take on what they're doing, and what they're about.

 

MAURI: They're awesome. Like d -- dark, psych-wave band. You know? Uh, like the war horses of the underground. They're incredible. Those guys tour 340 days a year, all over the world. It's amazing.

 

JUSTIN: That sounds brutal.

 

MAURI: No -- well, I'm sure it is brutal. But they're like, you know --

 

JUSTIN: Especially the way those guys play. I mean, they thrash their guitars and they just like kill it every night.

 

MAURI: Totally. Those -- those guys are slayers for the cause.

 

JUSTIN: Anyway, alright. I'm gonna stop there. I just wanted to get -- sneak in a little bit about my love for A Place to Bury Strangers. And I have to say, I'm quietly super psyched to hear that 98 percent of the songs are about me. That feels awesome.

 

MAURI: Excellent.

 

JUSTIN: Thank you.

 

MAURI: Alright, you're welcome. Bye, guys.

 

31:06  

When your boss says "How's it going?" what they really mean is "I don't trust you." Confused? You shouldn't be. Mr Corpo explains how to get credit for all the work you do. Plus special guest Nick Grover explains why Mr Corpo might be the worst boss in the world and why it's a bad idea to party with your direct reports. New music by Rich Girls.

 

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

You + Your Boss (9/14/2016)

FEMALE VOICE: Knock knock. 

JUSTIN: Who's there? 

FEMALE VOICE: Get to work. 

JUSTIN: Hi, I'm Justin Kerr, and you're listening to the Mr. Corpo podcast. Kicking ass in corporate America since 2000. Rob, hit the theme music. 

(Intro music)

JUSTIN: Welcome back to episode two of the Mr. Corpo podcast. We're recording live from my apartment in New York City. And on this week's episode, we're gonna be talking about you and your relationship with your boss. It's kinda scary to think about, but your boss holds so much power over you. They almost have the power to determine everything that happens in your life: how much money you're getting, how successful you're gonna be in your career. It's crazy to think about how important they are to you. Let's talk about it. This is gonna be kinda like relationship therapy. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Alright. Before we get started on today's show, I thought I'd start with a little bit of an ice-breaker. Since we're talking about bosses, it made me start thinking about, who's my favorite boss? And I came up with a list. I'm gonna name names, I'm gonna tell you who's my favorite bosses. Here's my top four. Number one, Chris Funk. Number two, Arthur Lewis. Number three, Michelle DiMartini. And number four, Berendt Hopcorn (?). There it is, for the whole world to see, those are my favorite bosses I've ever had in my life. Shoutout to them, even though they'll probably never listen to this podcast, and they'll never know they made the list. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Okay, on to the next order of business. I'm gonna call this section, "How's it going?" I'm gonna call it that because I wanna talk about those four little words: how is it going. For most people, if their boss walks by and asks, "How's it going?" They think, "Wow, I've got such a nice boss, he's asking me how it's going, what a great guy." Let me tell you what your boss actually means when they ask, "How's it going?" What your boss actually means is, "I don't trust you." 

Confused? You shouldn't be. Let me break it down for you. Here's what most people think happens on a project. Your boss asks you to do something, you go away and do it, and then you turn in the project. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Here's what actually happens on a project. Your boss asks you to do something, you go away and work on it, then your boss comes over and says, "Hey, how's the project going?" You say fine, keep doing the work. Then maybe the next day, maybe a few hours later, your boss comes by and goes, "Hey, how's it going?" Again, you just say, "Yeah, good, good, good. I'll -- I'll turn it in." And then on Friday, you turn in the project. Mission accomplished, right? 

Wrong. Here's the thing. Most people don't think about the boss's experience of how the project get done. And the thing is, because your boss had to come by and say, "How's it going? How's the project going? What's going on with the project?" What they were actually saying is, "I don't trust you. I don't think the work is gonna get done unless I'm over here babysitting you." You very well may have been doing all the work. You very well may have been turning it in on time. But the thing is, because your boss had to come ask you those questions, they're gonna walk away from the project and feel like it never would have gotten done if I hadn't reminded them about it. So you're never gonna get credit for all your work. I mean, let me just say right now, one of the most common complaints I hear when I talk to people about work and their boss and all these things is, they say, gosh, I never get credit for all the work I'm doing. 

Well, this is exactly the problem. The problem is, your boss is taking credit for all the work you're doing. And the thing is, it's really easy to fix. Here's what I want you to do. Whenever your boss gives you a project, I want you to go right back to your desk, and I want you to send them a really quick, simple email. Just says, "Hey boss, thanks for the project. Here's how I'm gonna get it done." One, two, three bullet points. Those bullet points just need to say, "Here's when I'll turn it in, here's when I'll send you a rough draft, and I'll check in with you." This simple email, right away, takes a little bit of their stress away. And then what I want you to do is, the next day or two days later, I want you to shoot a quick email. Take that email you already sent them, forward it back to them and say, "Hey boss, just wanna give you an update. Project's going great, I'm gonna be on time for Friday, you know, really excited about it." This simple little check-in calms your boss down, lets them know you're on top of it. Lets them know you're the boss, you're reliable, you're gonna get things done. 

So then I want you to keep working on the 05:00 project, and then the night before the project's due, let's say the project's due Friday, I want you to email your boss at Thursday at 5 PM. Why Thursday at 5 PM? Because I want you to get credit before Friday. I wanna make sure your boss reads that email before they leave work on Thursday. And that email should be really simple. It just says, "Hey boss, here's a pre-read of the project. Feeling great about it. It's 90 percent done, or it's 100 percent done. Here's the most exciting part, or here's a question I have for you, or can you give me your advice, or I'm looking forward to tomorrow." Um, and then, just shoot that quick email, just a reminder to say, "Hey boss, I'm reliable, you can trust me, I'm getting things done." 

You turn in the project. And guess what? All of a sudden, look at what happened on that project. You've gotten credit for that project three times before you've even turned in the work. You have that first email where you sent a recap and an outline of how you're gonna work. You sent the second email to say, "Here's a quick update." You sent the third email to say, "I'm on schedule, here's a pre-read, check it out." And then that's all before you've even turned it in. So all of a sudden, now you're getting credit for a project four times rather than just one time when you turn it in. 

This is a huge difference. This is totally gonna change the way your boss sees you. All of a sudden, they're gonna say, "I like working with that person." The boss loves you. You're reliable, you get things done, you keep 'em in the loop, that's all any boss could ask for. So it's really simple. Remember, the journey is as important as the destination. 

Oh. I think I just changed your life forever. Maybe? Sort of? Kind of? Improved it just a little bit, just like the tiniest little bit, like just a little bit better than it was before? What do you think, Rob? Did I get it a little bit right? 

ROB: I think so. You changed my life. 

JUSTIN: Oh, alright. Well, that's good enough for me. Before we get to the second half of the podcast, I wanna pause for a word from our sponsor, Forlorn Hope Wines. Rob, let's hit the uh, ad theme music. Ready? And if you don't know, now you know. 

Alright, let's talk about Forlorn Hope Wines. Everybody knows that the wine is good. Everybody knows that Matt Rorick, the winemaker is awesome. Everybody knows that you can get 15 dollars off when you buy three or more bottles at forlornhopewines.com, by using the discount code MRCORPO. All capitals, no spaces. Everybody knows that. 

But what everybody doesn't know, what I wanna tell you today, for the first time, is why is it called Forlorn Hope? Here's the story. It's taken from the Dutch word, Verloren Upe, meaning lost truth. Forlorn Hope was the name given to the band of soldiers who volunteered to lead the charge directly into the enemy defenses. The chance of success for Forlorn Hope was always slim. But the glory and reward granted to these survivors ensured there was never any shortage of applicants. That's pretty cool. I'm not sure I'm the guy that's gonna join forlorn hope, I'm not sure I'm really the guy that's gonna run over the hill directly into the machine gun fire, but I get the concept and I think it's a rad name for starting a new project, for doing the impossible, and just saying, "The hell with it, let's do it." Maybe we should re-name this podcast Forlorn Hope. What do you think? 

ROB: Yeah, (inaudible). 

JUSTIN: Well, I mean, if he paid us enough money I would change it. I would call this podcast "Mr. Corpo loves Forlorn Hope Wines." Anyway, now you know why it's called Forlorn Hope. And if you don't know, now you know. 

Uh oh, Rob. It's that time again. 

ROB: What time's that?

JUSTIN: Bonus time! Bonus! Bonus time! Bonus time! Bonus time! Bonus time! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus time! Bonus time! Bonus section! Bonus time, I love you! Alright, super excited, that was a super enthusiastic introduction. For the first time ever on the Mr. Corpo podcast, we have a guest speak. 

FEMALE VOICE: Who?

JUSTIN: That wasn't even very exciting, Rob. 

ROB: I'm sorry! I'm really exciting. I'm trying to get the levels up. 

JUSTIN: Alright. We have our first guest on the Mr. Corpo podcast. I'd like to introduce Nick Grover. Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick! Grover! Nick, say something. 

NICK: I wish you guys would let me pick out my walk out music. 

JUSTIN: Oh, dude. Great idea. Next time. 

NICK: Regulate, Warren G, just in case you wanna know. 

ROB: I'll fix it in post. Alright. 

NICK: Yeah. 

JUSTIN: 10:01 Well, welcome to the show today, Nick. Uh, we're so excited to have you. 

NICK: Thanks for having me. This is a first-time experience for me so -- don't know what I'm getting into, but let's see where it goes. 

JUSTIN: Alright, well, let's go. So this open -- this episode, we're talking about bosses. We're talking about you and your boss, we're talking about being a boss, we're talking about all of it. So I just wanna open up the show, I wanna let everyone know, I used to be Nick's boss. That's why I brought him here. Right, Nick? Do you remember that? 

NICK: Oh, I remember. 

JUSTIN: What was it like? What was it like for -- for having me as a boss?

NICK: I think it was interesting. You know, you, uh, we've obviously been friends a long time, and you're -- you -- I was just getting to know you and -- when you were my boss. You have always been one of the like, most intense people I know, both like, intense in your friendship, intense in your, like, passion for work. So it's -- I think I was for sure a little bit intimidated by it. 

Um, you know, I think there's two things that I always think about when I think of like our first time together. One is, you're the first person I worked for that -- you know, you wear your emotions on your sleeve. Like, there is no lying when you work for Justin Kerr. Like, if you tell Justin Kerr, "Hey man, like, I got this awesome idea and you're super passionate about it," while you're telling the story of the idea to Justin Kerr, he is either looking at you like you're the smartest person who's ever lived, or the look on his face is like, you don't deserve to sit across from me and talk to me about anything. Like, what -- how did you get this job? Like, not only do I wanna fire you, but like, I wanna go and find the person who passed your resume to somebody and get you out of here. And it was like -- I mean it was one of the craziest but also, you know, first-time learning experiences of like, dealing with people for me when I was super young, starting out. And you know, I think it uh -- it's a skill set, right? You have to learn how to like manage up, you learn how to read people, and yeah, I think we had some funny experiences as a result of it. And um, you know, I -- one thing I will say I always appreciate about it is like, you knew if you had a good idea or if like, your boss was supporting you. And if you had a bad idea, like, you knew, alright, back to the drawing board. It was never a place of like -- it was come -- it was come back and show me something better, like, that's -- that's not gonna cut it, man. 

JUSTIN: Oh my gosh, I -- I honestly well, I -- okay, I don't know whether to make good or bad of that. I -- I -- you're kind of like -- are you being nice? It sounds like I was a little bit mean to you. 

NICK: You weren't mean to me. I think, you know, we -- we had an interesting thing where we knew each other a little bit before I started working for you. And you know, your work style and my work style were like literally polar opposites. Like we -- we were both pretty good at our jobs. I -- I -- you were -- you would consider yourself amazing at your job, and I would consider myself like -- I'm not like totally failing at this job. Um, but like, I -- I just like, the way I approached the work is very different from you. And I think we -- we had this kind of conversation early on, I remember. And then we definitely had it when, you know, you had an opportunity to like get promoted and take on a bigger team. And I had a different division where it was like, hey Nick, you know, I want you to keep like being yourself, I know we're different, and like, let's like see how this goes, you know? And I think if we were to like evaluate our boss manage -- like, managee, you know, direct rapport relationship, you'd be like, yeah, it didn't go so well. It didn't -- it wasn't a failure, but like, it -- like, we just didn't see eye to eye, or align in the right ways. 

And I -- it's actually something that's like stuck with me for my career as I've become a manager. Cause at that point in time I was just starting to like, learn what that meant, where you were like, listen, man, this was kind of a failure for us. And it's not cause you're don't know what you're doing, and it's definitely not cause I don't know what I'm doing, but like, we just didn't see eye to eye in this. Like, keep kicking ass, try again, like, with your -- whoever your next manager is. And like, you know, let's -- let's not let this like ruin that we, like, respect each other. 

And you're probably the only person I worked for, honestly, where like that actually was true. Like we -- we said, this didn't work, and like, I still think you're cool, and you -- I was like, I still think you're cool, and you're pretty smart, and like, let's just keep, you know, working together. And you became like a mentor for me from that point on, and you know, outside of our friendship, it's a reason like -- you've been like a person who's helped my career and helped me like learn new things for a long time. It was a -- it was a turning point for me as far as like how to work with somebody who, you know, you were very different from. 

JUSTIN: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I kinda had the same experience. And when I look back on it, I remember thinking, I really like Nick, but then when it came to the work part of it, I was kinda like, I really don't like Nick. And I couldn't quite figure out what it meant to kind of be -- not be your boss, but just kinda figure out 15:03 how to I reconcile these two things? There's like this great person who's super interesting and I like, and then when it came to the work stuff, how do I reach them? They're so different from me. And I -- and I think, you know, I was obviously much younger then, but I think that's one of the biggest adjustments for being a boss is, how do you work with people that aren't like you?

NICK: Totally. 

JUSTIN: Um, and it wasn't easy, you know? And I think as a result, probably the deeper back you go in my career, the more horrible things people would have to say -- say about me as a boss. Um, so you know, hopefully I've gotten better by now. But yeah, I had the same experience. And uh, you know, some things I would -- actually, almost everything I would do different, um, because I just didn't really have the empathy. You know? I really couldn't relate to people that didn't do things the way I did them. 

NICK: Sure, sure. 

JUSTIN: And I think that that's just -- now I realize that's one of the most important skills to have as a boss, and how do you listen, how do you figure out what motivates you, and let me get to that, let me help you get there, instead of trying to figure out, how do I make you just like me? And if you're just like me, you're gonna be awesome. And the truth is, not everybody wants to be like me, as -- as hard as -- as hard as it is for me to admit that, I've come to realize, not everybody wants to be like me. 

NICK: It's a small percentage of the world that doesn't want to aspire. But -- but there are a couple people out there. 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. There's a few of them, right. I remember. Um, but anyway, well, well that's good. I'm glad we kind of made it through that. And I consider you one of my good friends now. So uh, you know, it's kind of shocking. We -- we stopped working together for a long time and now we're working together again. But I think it's better. now. Do you notice any difference from nine years ago to today? 

NICK: Totally. I mean, I think, you know, it's interesting because like, we work together now, and I -- I see how you work with like, the large team that you're responsible for, and -- and we work in like such a dynamic and strenuous, like, workplace. And I think, like, you've really, you know, the -- the guy that I first worked for, versus the guy I see like leading this like, huge, you know, global organization now, it's tot -- I mean, it's like, he's a total, he's the most, like, evolved person I've ever seen as far as like, you know, learning how to work with tons of different people. And across a -- you know, language barriers, and all those things, it's fascinating. So I'm actually super stoked to be working around you again just because like, I get the perspective of my like, experience to this point, but then I really feel like there's a lot more to learn, in like watching how you, you know, operate in the company. And like, lead people. So I'm -- I'm excited for like, the second, kinda, chance, if you will. 

JUSTIN: I'll take it. 

NICK: You do a little bit of your old -- that old dictator back. 

JUSTIN: Yeah. No, it's always simmering under the surface. 

NICK: Oh sure, oh sure, oh sure. 

JUSTIN: How many piles of sand can I put on top of my actual feelings, so -- 

NICK: Waiting to explore. 

JUSTIN: No, that's right. I just kind of come home and scream into a pillow. 

NICK: I still -- I still can show you a product presentation or any idea and know exactly -- literally within half a second whether I should just quit while I'm ahead or -- or just be like, oh, yep, we got it. I'll, uh, show this to you next week after I already look at it. So, some things will never change. 

JUSTIN: Alright, alright. Well, that's what comes with working together for a long time, so -- 

NICK: For sure, for sure. 

JUSTIN: Sounds good. Um, well listen, we're talking about bosses, we don't have to just talk about me and you. Uh, tell me about -- any experiences come to mind with old bosses or you being a boss, you're a boss with a lot of people, anything come to mind, any stories? 

NICK: It's interesting, like, you work in corporate America, you basically are like a 20-year-old, which, you know, when you are starting your job, you're like, I'm so old and wise, and then, now, ten years later, you're like what a fuckin idiot I was. Um, and you're like, yeah, but you're in charge of people. So you know, as 20-year-olds do, we like hung out a lot at work, and we for sure hung out a lot outside of work. And I think, you know, early on in my career, um, yeah, I -- of course I was new to the company, I wanted people to like me, I wanted people to like me as their boss, I wanted everyone to have a good time. And yeah, as a result, I'd be like hey guys, like, let's do fun things. And -- or, the team would do fun things. 

And so I remember like, it was a Christmas party, and we were at a -- like a karaoke event, and I had three very sweet, very smart, very lovely women reporting in to me, that were younger than me, and also just starting out. And we were all giving each other like, different karaoke songs, you know, just cause it was like a fun like, work time. And I was like, I wanna give people a hard song, like I want my team to have a hard song, that'll be funny. And I'm like cruising through, I like -- I listen to a lot of hip hop, but apparently like, don't actually listen to the words. And I was like, oh, Whisper Song, Ying Yang Twins. That's a tough song, that's a hard song to sing. I'll -- I'm choosing that one. And like, these three people are like pretty -- I mean like, I -- in my mind I was like, innocent, like my sisters, you know? 

JUSTIN: Wait, wait, wait. What's the Whisper Song? Like, what's a lyric from that song? 

NICK: There's a lyric that I remember every single time I hear about -- this is the chorus: "Just wait till you see my dick." 20:02 That is the chorus of the song that I chose for three direct reports at a corporate holiday event to sing. So side bar story: two of the -- two of the women were like, go with the flow, you know, this is embarrassing, like, we're just gonna do it, get it -- you know, it's four minutes of our lives. One of them just murdered that song. Like every lyric, every flow, every bar. Which I don't know if like, that was actually more amazing, or more scary. 

But my -- my like, moral of the story is like, there is this thing when you're a -- when you manage people, or you're a boss, like -- that's -- that's a 24/7 kind of experience. Like, you don't know the situation you're gonna be in, you know, I've had -- I've had people whose parents have found out their parents died in a meeting that I was in, and having to handle the personal side of it. I've obviously put people in this awkward situation of like, singing a -- really a foul song at work. And you know, it's like -- you have to really learn, like, you're always, you're managing these people, you're kind of cultivating your career, you represent the company, like, you have to really be thinking at all times. Like, fight the urge of being the friend, all -- which you want. You want people to like you as a friend. You want people to think you're like cool and fun. 

But like, you also have to be like a -- you know, a -- a -- a good boss. And -- you really have to be a good boss first. And I didn't know it at the time, and yeah, I think it's like, you -- it's hard, you start to separate yourself from people you like that report in to you on that super friendly level, to like really help them in their career, which -- that's your job. That's what the company wants you to do, that's what you hopefully, if you're a good boss, wanna do. But that's one of those stories where I like laugh initially, and then like, start to feel kinda sick to my stomach. 

JUSTIN: Well that's -- that's a good story. I mean, I think one of the things that -- that I relate to when you say that is, this idea of you know, when you become the boss, there's a moment at which people don't wanna party with you. So like, you grow up, and you're with your friends, you're with your co-workers, and you're going out, and you wanna be the life of the party, you wanna have fun. And then there's this moment where you realize, actually everyone's behaving themselves. Everyone's like tapping it down a little bit, and it's like, why is everyone being so calm? And then it's like, oh right, cause I'm the boss and I have to leave this party so that they can actually have fun. And that was definitely like a discouraging moment for me, when I was like, alright nobody wants to party with me. Actually, the party will start after I leave, uh, but I've kind of just accepted my fate in that way. 

But um, you know, it's just -- it's not easy, because being a boss, you really can't be yourself. You really can't -- I always have this instinct where I'm like, I'm great, I have so much passion and personality, I wanna like, let it all out and I wanna tell a joke. And it's more often than not, like, that's the moment that I get in trouble. It's like following my personal instinct to make fun of something or be sarcastic or like, be super enthusiastic. It's like, actually what the company wanted from you was just to stand still and shake their hand. They didn't want you to like do a funny joke about it. And I think that's always like the -- this side and that side and kind of reconciling yourself to working for a big company and you know, trying to be yourself in that world. 

But um, anyway. Uh, what else? Anything else? That was like a great story about you being a boss. What about like a boss story of someone that was above you? 

NICK: Yeah, yeah, I have an interesting one, I think. Like I was thinking about, just, you know, starting out, as you kinda tend to do. And first bosses. And this is like a quasi-boss story cause she wasn't actually my boss at the time, but when I was interviewing, to like -- to join, you know, the company we worked at for ten years, I had this experience where as a senior manager, SVP, head of like all -- basically like the most important person at the time for merchandising, the -- the -- the job I was interviewing for. And I -- you know, I was relatively new to the Bay Area, so it was like, it was -- you know, I'm from a -- a farm town in like Pennsylvania. The Bay Area is like, this like, place of wonder and like, you know, beauty. And I'm in -- uh, I'm in our building, and like, over -- all the like, super like, high up executives office, or like, the most insane thing I've ever seen, and they like, overlook the bay, you know, I -- I literally would get no work done, I would just like, daydream out the window. Um, and so I'm in this interview, and you know, I think I'm like, killing it, like I'm pretty motivated. I've -- I've like, I've done my homework, like I've -- I'm -- the vibe is good. The vibe is really good. 

And you know, halfway through the interview, the phone rings and she looks at the number on the phone and she's like, "Oh, Nick, I'm sorry. Uh, this is -- this is really important, I gotta take it." And I'm like, "No worries, you know, uh, I'm just gonna check out this view while you're on the phone, it's amazing." And like literally her energy changes from like super calm and like, chill, to like dagger eyes. And like, I -- in my -- and this is all happening in a millisecond. 25:03 So my body is just like, what just happened. My brain is like fire alarms, sirens are going off. And she like, kinda like, turns her head to me, like stares me down, she's like, "Nick, are you looking at my ass right now?" Like, that was the first -- like, that was how she took -- 

JUSTIN: She said that?

NICK: Yeah, she said that. This is -- she -- 

JUSTIN: She said, "Are you looking at my ass?"

NICK: Yeah, yeah. Those exact words. And I -- and I don't -- I literally actually can't remember like, what my reaction was. Like, I -- I actually don't know if I said anything. I may have just shut down completely, or I might have just said like, fumbled my way through like, this is -- the Bay is beautiful, like, look at this beautiful bay. Which -- which in retrospect, like, she may have said "Oh, that's totally unbuy -- unbuyable, like -- 

JUSTIN: Oh my -- wait, so what happened? 

NICK: Well, it -- I mean, I went home, and I was like, I'm not getting this job for sure. And I told, like, one of like the guys I knew at the company what happened. He's like, oh dude, I -- that doesn't sound good at all. And then there was literally radio silence for like three months. Like I -- I was like, looking for other jobs, like, man what a great opportunity, passed me by. And then like, I finally got the call, and they were like, yeah, we're totally hiring you. And to this day, I don't know like, did that help me get the job? This is a person of power, right? Like, whether I'm working for them or I'm interviewing with them, you're like, this person holds the cards to my future, and you -- you do. I found myself in a situation, I was like, I don't know what to do right here. Like, I -- I thought I was hot shit and you threw me a question that I was definitely off script, and I was like, I don't have a fucking answer for you. Like, do you want me to? Do you want me to check it out? Like, what -- what do I do?

JUSTIN: I mean, that's the thing, it's like, at some point, you know, you're saying, this is a person of power, this is a person who's gonna make a decision in my life. But then at another level, it's just a person. This is a human interaction at some level. So there's this dual level of man and woman, and then like, boss and interviewee, I mean -- that's super complicated. That's hilarious. 

NICK: It -- I mean, it's a -- yeah, it's a -- it's a fond, strange memory that I'll always have. I've -- if -- if you're curious, I've never reciprocated that in an interview process by asking anybody if they've been looking at my ass. 

JUSTIN: I think that's a good strategy, by the way. I think that's a really good strategy. Just stay away from that. 

NICK: Took -- probably took me like, till I was mid-30s to reach the level of maturity to -- to -- to say, Nick, that's a bad idea. Don't -- don't rip -- don't do that in an interview. 

JUSTIN: I don't think we can top that story. I mean, I literally think that might be -- we might never have another guest on this show. Alright, Nick, that was fantastic. Before we do, is there any last words, any shoutouts you wanna give to anyone out there, any revenge you wanna get on anybody, any girls that never returned your call, anything you wanna say?

NICK: Oh, I like this. Revenge. Yeah, I had a shitty boss early on. His name was Rob Voppel. And he's a horrible person. Rob Voppel, you know where to find me. 

JUSTIN: That's amazing. We've just created a platform for revenge on the Mr. Corpo podcast. I love that. I'm trying to think, who's the worst boss I've ever had. I can think of one guy comes to name, Brian Murphy. He was super annoying to me. But actually if I think of the worst boss, I think of myself when I first became a boss. I think the first two people -- the first two people I was the boss of both quit -- just like literally got up and quit one day in the middle of like a conversation. 

NICK: Have you ever made anybody cry? 

JUSTIN: Uh, yes. A -- a lot. 

NICK: Less than five? More than ten?

JUSTIN: More than ten. More than 20. 

NICK: Wow. 

JUSTIN: Um, it's not something I'm proud of. I'm just saying, that's something that's happened in my career. Um, I had this one guy who worked for me, his name was Scott. And for some reason, he could never spell words correctly. And so he would send emails and he would write the word "whether" and he would write it w-e-a-t-h-e-r. And so we -- we sat right across from each other and I would get his email and I would be like, Scott, just -- just so you know, the word "whether" is w-h-e-t-h-e-r and when you say "weather," that means like, it's sunny outside or it's snowing or something like that. And so I -- he would like, do this a couple times with like really basic words. And for -- at that time I was like, totally new to being a boss and I thought, my job is to correct every single thing that this person does wrong at any given moment in the day. And so I -- I did this, I kind of like corrected his spelling a couple times. And then he printed out a report for me, I'll never forget this, he handed it to me on my desk, he went out and he filled his water bottle with some more water and he came back in and I had marked up the page as I had a tendency to do, with my pen, and I handed it back to him and I said, "Hey, Scott, you know, uh, right here you misspelled the word whether. Um, so I just wanna make sure we correct that before we send it -- send it off to the boss." 30:01 And he literally put down the piece of paper, looked at me and said, "I quit." And I was like, sitting there, and I was just like, "What?" And he's like, "I quit. I can't do this anymore." And he literally grabbed his bag and walked out. 

I mean, liter -- Scott, if you are listening, I will get down on my hands and knees and say, I am so sorry. I was the worst boss that I possibly know. And that was all my fault, and I'm sorry that I didn't make it work. But anyway, uh, worst boss in the world, Justin Kerr. Let's end with that. Thanks so much, Nick. 

(music)

JUSTIN: Alright, that was amazing. I love having guests. You know what else is amazing? Working with my awesome producer, Rob Schulte. Rob, give a shoutout. 

ROB: Hey, (inaudible). 

JUSTIN: Dude, why do you need a job? You got a job here at Mr. Corpo. 

ROB: (inaudible)

JUSTIN: Actually I don't pay him enough, so yeah, News Corp, get on this thing. Um, alright, listen, two more things before we go. First, hit me on the social channels. Blow me up. I'm on Twitter at Mr_Corpo and I'm on Instagram at MRCORPO. Alright, before we go, I'm gonna leave you with a cut from Rich Girls' new album, Love Is The Dealer. Comes out in September. And the song is called "New Bag." Oh, Rob, should I mention that my wife is the lead singer of Rich Girls, or -- 

ROB: Uh, next episode. 

JUSTIN: Next episode, okay, I'll say that next time. Alright. Here we go. "New Bag."

(song)

34:35 

 

More money, better title, bigger office, make Daddy happy - we all want to be promoted - but most of us don't know how - Mr Corpo breaks it down in 3 easy steps. Plus - new music by The Lonelyhearts.

 

LISTEN HERE:

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

How To Get Promoted (9/7/2016)

JUSTIN: What do you call a dog at the beach? A hot dog.

(Intro music)

JUSTIN: More money. Better title. Bigger office. Make Daddy happy. Hi, I'm Justin Kerr, and you're listening to another episode of Mr. Corpo podcast. And in case you didn't guess it, we're gonna talk about promotions.

Let me just start this episode by saying, life is not fair. If we're willing to accept this as the basic premise going into the conversation, we have nowhere to go but up. I mean, look. I have plenty examples of my career where life wasn't fair. I remember a boss telling me, "Justin, you're ready to be promoted. You deserve to be promoted, I wanna promote you." But Carla, she's not ready to be promoted, and it might hurt her feelings if we promote you before we promote her. I was literally sitting there, I'm a 27-year-old up and coming kid, I wanna be promoted, I think it's overdue, and I'm being told, we can't promote you until this bad person, Carla -- and when I say bad person, I mean bad at her job -- until she gets better at her job, then we wanna promote you together. I mean, imagine the injustice. But that's just my proof: life is not fair. But I digress. The point of this episode is, I wanna move you from a passive passenger on the journey to getting promoted and turn you into the driver of your own promotion. And look, getting promoted isn't easy. But the thing is, actually, it is easy. And I'm gonna break it down right now into three main parts. Number one, setting your goals. Number two, understanding the playing field. And number three, making your case. So without further ado, let's jump right into it: setting your goals.

(music)

JUSTIN: Now, this may seem obvious to everyone out there. Oh, setting my goals, that's so dumb, why do I even have to waste my time setting goals? So many people skip this step, and -- and what I have to say to anyone who skips the step of setting goals, it's kind of like setting out to drive from New York City to San Francisco, and being in such a rush to get to San Francisco, you don't bother to look up the directions. "I'm in too much of a rush, I gotta get to San Francisco as fast as possible. I don't have time to look up the directions." Think about it. If you want to get from here to there, take just a minute or two. Take an hour, and figure out how you wanna get there, where you wanna go, and what are the steps along the way. You are gonna save so much time, so much energy, so much heartbreak. Trust me, you won't run out of gas, you'll always have snacks in the car, and the air conditioning will always work. Set your goals. Now, the thing about setting your goals is, most people do it completely wrong. I wanna set you straight. Here's what I want you to do when you set your goals. First thing I want you to do is completely ignore your company's goals. You know those goals that HR rolls out, and they say, this is our one-year goals, everyone fill out this form, let's waterfall it from the management to the middle management to the lower leaders, to the bottom people? And it takes you about six months for you to get these company goals and by the time you get the goals, they're asking you to fill out your midterm report. And it has no meaning whatsoever, because they haven't even set them and then no one talks about them at all, and then all of a sudden HR says, "Hey, you gotta fill in your end of year goals, make sure to fill out your form." No one's looked at them, no one's talked about them, they're a complete waste of time. So my point is, of course you gotta follow the rules, fill them out, but these don't matter. These don't count as your goals, alright? Here's the thing I want you to focus on. Six-month goals are good, three-month goals are the best, and one-month goals are useful. Alright? So six-month goals, whatever, you can figure it out. Three-month goals, that's what I want you to focus on. The reason I like three-month goals is because it's a long enough period of time that you can actually get something accomplished and measure that result. It's 12 weeks. You can get a lot done in 12 weeks. And I like that it's 12 weeks, because 12 weeks is actually an increment of time that you can somewhat get your head around. You can kind of think about, alright, in the next 12 weeks what do I have to do? And then you can start to count down and it feels real. If I tell you, what are you gonna do 52 weeks from now, you have no fucking idea, alright? My point is, 12 weeks, you can think about it, you can start to plan it out, 05:05 and it gives you enough runway to do the research, get the work done, and turn it in and get credit. And the thing is, to get promoted, you're gonna need two or three of these three-month projects. Thirty-day goals, this is like increasing your arsenal. Every 30 days, you wanna add a new skill set, and so it's like another weapon you're bringing to battle. And think about it. After one year, you're gonna have 12 new skills. Here's the other thing I wanna say about setting your goals: be specific. You aren't going to "improve your financials," quote unquote, you're going to set one-hour weekly meetings to study your financials with the CEO, or the CFO. You aren't going to quote, "beat sales target." Instead, you're going to rate your performance down to the plus or minus three percent, plus or minus ten percent, plus or minus 15 percent. It's gonna be measurable, it's gonna be specific. The more specific, the less it becomes a beauty pageant between you and someone else, and the more it becomes black and white facts, and the faster and easier it is for you to get promoted. Here's another tip on setting your goals: doing your job won't get you promoted. Now, some of you are listening and saying, "Well, that's not fair." And to those of you I just say, "Good luck with life." Now for the rest of you, if you hear me say, "Doing your job won't get you promoted," I love that you're thinking, "No, duh. Of course I'm gonna go above and beyond my job to show, hey, I'm performing my job at a level above my expectations, so take me to the next level." But I wanted to say it out loud cause not everybody understands this very basic premise. And the last thing I'm gonna say about setting your goals is: your boss is not a mind-reader. They don't know you wanna get promoted. They don't know that you wanna get promoted in three months. They don't know you expect to be promoted in six months. You need to say something. It's the same thing as these public announcements on the Subways: if you see something, say something. In this case, if you feel something, if you wanna be promoted, then say something. Tell them you wanna be promoted. And then guess what? Set a date. Remember I said be specific? Set a date with your boss. If you go into your boss and say, "I wanna get promoted," they'll be like great, okay, I wanna promote you, too. If you say, "I wanna be promoted in six months," they're gonna go, "Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble." You have to say it up front. You need to get on the same page as your boss and have a common understanding. Is that promotion three months away? Is it six months away? Is it 12 months away? It actually doesn't matter. Look, life is too long as it is. So you've got plenty of time. Understand, set the expectations, and then march to that goal, in combination with your boss. Get on the same page as your boss, and head towards that goal of getting promoted. The time doesn't matter. I know in the moment it's gonna feel important whether you got promoted in September or November, but it doesn't matter. Actually, it doesn't matter at all. And I can't remember which month I got promoted in any of my promotions over the last 16 years. I love to believe it all evens out in the end. And if someone gets promoted before they should, guess what? It just means next time, they'll be the last one promoted. So don't compare yourself to others, don't worry about it. The time doesn't matter, you have a goal, you know where you're headed, you've got a game plan, let's start moving there. Alright, that's it for number one, setting your goals. (music) JUSTIN: Alright, so we talked about setting your goals. Now I wanna talk about understanding the playing field. And what I mean by this is: who's who and whose butt do I have to kiss, and who's gonna kiss my butt, and how does this whole thing work? That's what I mean when I say, "understanding the playing field." It's not about you. It's not only about you. Of course it's a little bit about you, we're talking about your promotion. But the point is, it's not only about you. It's about your boss, it's about your boss's boss, it's about your boss's boss's boss. It's about some guy who sits on the floor above you who you're never heard of, who doesn't even work in your division, but somehow will be involved in the decision of whether or not you get promoted. It's about the HR person. It's about your peer group. It's about someone in a different division that joined the company at the same time as you. It doesn't matter if they're good or bad, you heard me talk about my experience with Carla. Obviously I still remember her name, it traumatically impacted my life, I don't want it to impact yours. I want you to understand, there's a lot of different pieces on the playing board. If you've got a good boss, they're gonna be on the same page as you, 10:01 they're gonna wanna help you get promoted. Don't go over your boss's head. Your job is to make your boss look good. Sure, you're gonna watch someone throw their boss under the bus, and they're gonna get a promotion one time in their life. But guess what? That strategy doesn't work. The fastest way to your promotion is getting your boss's strong endorsement. But it doesn't stop there. Because your boss isn't the only one who decides if you get promoted. HR is gonna play a role. Make sure you meet with HR every quarter. Make sure you meet with them and they know what your expectations are about promotions. Make sure you find a way that people in the building know your name. These things happen with big board meetings, there's seven people in the room, and they say, "Alright, I wanna promote Justin Kerr." And everyone in the room says, "Who?" You're dead. It doesn't even matter what you've done. If they haven't heard your name, it's a problem. So one of my small pieces of advice here is, organize a volunteer session. Do some small thing that makes everyone at the company know your name, so when they say, "We're here, I wanna promote Justin Kerr." And someone says, "Who?" They can at least say, "Justin's the guy who organized the Clean Up The Beach Day." You want people to know your name. That's just the cost of entry. So keep your eye out for that. Alright? And here's the other thing: I know you like to think you're the most important thing in the world, but you're not. Your boss has their own problems. Your boss is worried about their own promotion. Your boss is worried about their family at home. Your boss is pissed cause they didn't get promoted last quarter. Your boss is pissed cause they're hiring a new person above them. Your boss has problems. It's not just you. And the thing is, if you're good at your job, your boss is probably gonna completely ignore you and forget about you. Because bosses have a tendency to pay attention to the squeaky wheel. It's not just about you. You gotta think about all the other people that are gonna impact your ability to get promoted or not, okay? So that's my second point, understand the playing field. (music) JUSTIN: Alright, so let's talk about making your case. There's two easy steps to this. One, you need to summarize your accomplishments. And two, you need to set a meeting. It's that easy. Now, when it comes to summarizing your accomplishments, all I want you to do is open up an email, pull out a bunch of bullet points, and in one sentence or less, summarize each of your key points that support why you should be promoted. It can't be a paragraph long, that's too many words, nobody wants to read it. Just one sentence that says, "Here's specific proof of why I should be promoted." Now, hopefully there's more than one bullet point in this email, otherwise you're probably in trouble. Send it to your boss and say, "Hey boss, I just wanted to summarize all my key accomplishments this year. Look forward to having a conversation about my promotion." That's it, it's super simple, you've summarized your accomplishments. Now, the next part: setting up the meeting. It's super easy, but there's a couple things you need to get right. Now, don't run into your boss's office waving your sheets of paper and say, "Here's all my key accomplishments, I wanna get promoted." You don't wanna surprise your boss. This isn't gonna set the right mood, okay? So what you wanna do is shoot an easy email and say, "Hey boss, looking forward to talking about my promotion. Let me know if you want to use our weekly meeting, or if you want me to set up a separate time." And the thing is, you walk in there, you print out two copies of your accomplishments, you give them one copy, you keep the other. This meeting is not the moment to prove your case. This meeting is not the moment when you're gonna convince your boss that you should be promoted. The work's already been done, the decision's already been made. Now, here's what I wanna tell you: if you have a good boss, they've already confirmed with HR and their boss and their boss's boss that you're gonna get promoted. And in this case, you're gonna hand them the sheet of paper, they're gonna kick back and they're gonna say, "Hey, thanks for doing this, no problem, feeling good," and it'll be an easy conversation. That's if you have a good boss. If you have a mediocre boss, then maybe they've had some of the conversations and they're gonna grab that sheet of paper out of your hand, they're gonna be super desperate to go through it, and they're gonna say, "Oh, okay, good. I gotta get this, and I gotta send this to HR right away. I'm not sure I've convinced everyone for this promotion, but this'll help." The point is, your boss'll be happy you did this. Now, the third option is, you have a bad boss. This happens more often than any of us would care for. Your boss hasn't given your promotion a second thought, they've done no work for your promotion, basically you're dead in the water. But this is salvageable. You've summarized your key accomplishments, you've made it easy for your boss to try and make up for lost time. They can forward this to HR, they can forward it to their boss' boss' boss, 15:03 and they can try and push this thing through. It's your best chance at getting promoted. So whether you have a good boss, a mediocre boss, or a bad boss, this is the way to go. Now, after that, as I said at the beginning of the show, life's not fair. So if you got promoted, awesome, onto the next. If you didn't, keep going. HR, your boss, are gonna feel so guilty that they let you down that you'll get promoted at the next half, or the next quarter, it doesn't matter. Keep going, you'll get the promotion you deserve. There's no magic here. We set some goals, we made sure everybody knew about it. And then that was it. Mission accomplished. So just to summarize, one more time, there was only three steps to getting a promotion. I want you to set your goals, I want you to make sure you know who the right people are, and then I want you to make your case. That's it. Now, go get promoted.

(music)

JUSTIN: Now, let's pause for a word from our sponsors. For today's ad, I'm gonna crank call Matt Rorick, the founder and winemaker of Forlorn Hope. (phone ringing) MATT: Hello, you've reached Matthew Rorick. Please leave a message, and I will return your call as soon as possible. VOICEMAIL: At the tone, please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up, or press one for more options. (voicemail tone) JUSTIN: Hey Matt, this is Justin. I'm calling from the Mr. Corpo podcast, and we're recording your ad live, on the air, right now. One of the things that our listeners don't know is, every bottle of Forlorn Hope includes your phone number on the cork. And it says, "Call me." So I just wanted to let everybody know, they can have the pleasure of calling you if they buy Forlorn Hope Wine and find your number and leave a crank call on your voicemail. So all Mr. Corpo listeners, buy Forlorn Hope Wine, use the Mr. Corpo discount, it's at forlornhopewine.com, and the discount is MRCORPO. You get 15 percent off. After you open your first bottle, I insist that you call Matt on this number, it's on the cork, and I need you to leave a bad joke, I need you to tell him you listen to Mr. Corpo podcast, whatever the case may be. But the point is, this guy's awesome, he believes in his product, and you can call him directly. Oh, and one more thing: he's really good looking.

(music)

JUSTIN: Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section!

Bonus section! Bonus, bonus, bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bonus! Bonus section, I love you!

ROB: Me, too! JUSTIN: Welcome to another famous bonus section of the Mr. Corpo podcast. This week, we're gonna talk about how to talk about your promotion without making everybody hate you. And I'm gonna give you a few do's and don't's. Here they are. Do talk about your desire to be promoted with your boss. Do set a rough timeline with your boss for when you should get promoted. Do frame the discussion around your goals and what you're working on. You don't wanna talk about your promotion all the time, you wanna talk about your goals and what you're working on. Do frame your desire to be promoted in the context of you wanting to have a bigger impact on the business. This isn't about promotion, promotion, promotion. This is about, I wanna take on more responsibility, I wanna contribute more to the company. I wanna help make everyone more successful. In this context, nobody's gonna hate you. Now, here's a few things I don't want you to do. Don't talk about your desire for a bigger title as the reason for your promotion. Don't compare yourself to the weakest co-worker in your entire building and use that as justification for why you should be promoted. That's for losers. Don't bring up your desire to be promoted more than once a month. Don't even bring it up once a month. Remember the do's? Talk about how you're working on big projects, how you wanna make a bigger impact on the business. This is gonna sound a lot better to everybody involved and no one's gonna hate you. Alright, so that's how to talk about your promotion without making everybody hate you. But guess what? We're not done yet. Rob, first time ever, super secret bonus section! Super secret bonus section! Super secret bonus section! Super secret bonus section! First time ever.

ROB: Wow.

JUSTIN: 20:00 Alright everybody, I'm gonna do this in a low whisper, cause I really want you to lean into your speakers in your car, while you're driving, get your ear as close to where the speakers are as possible. Alright, here's the super secret first time ever double bonus section. Here's one more point about how to get promoted. And it's two words: save everything. You don't have a good memory. Your boss doesn't have a good memory. If I asked you what you did 30 weeks ago, you would have no idea. If I asked you what you did 20 weeks ago, you'd have no idea. Now, don't take this as a judgement of how useless your life is. I'm trying to point out, you need to save everything. Create a folder, call it "Promotions" and then every day as anything good happens, throw it into that folder. Monthly recaps? Throw it in the folder. Your boss says good job? Throw it in the folder. Everything there. Save everything. That's my super secret, get promoted, not-everyone does-it-but-they-should-do-it bonus tip. Boom.

(music)

JUSTIN: Maybe as an addendum to the Mr. Corpo podcast, we will be sending out morse code super secret bonus sections. Hit me up on the social channels if you need more details. Twitter, it's Mr_Corpo. And Instagram, it is still MRCORPO. But of course, before we go, I wanna get you to come new music. I also wanna thank my producer, Rob. It's actually Rob's birthday. Rob, could you say a word or two?

ROB: Hey, thanks for giving me the mic. I just wanted to let everyone out there in radio land know that -- no, that's not how I actually talk. I just love working on the Mr. Corpo podcast, so leave it a rating and a review on iTunes. Let everyone else know. Tell your friends, tell your mom. Your mom wants a promotion? Get her one.

JUSTIN: Rob, how old are you.

ROB: Thirty-two.

JUSTIN: Thirty-two?

ROB: Thirty-two.

JUSTIN: Good luck with that. Alright, now listen, before we go, I wanna leave you with some new music. This is from one of my favorite bands of all time. They're called the Lonely Hearts, and this song is called "Overpass." (song) 28:27

Promotions. Good Bosses. Bad bosses. Crying. Email Fights. Deadlines. Overtime. Human Resources. Interviews. Quitting. Bonuses. Work. Let's talk about it.                                      

                         

 

 

Full Transcript: 

Meet Mr. Corpo: A Podcast Preview (8/23/2016)

JUSTIN: Promotions. Good bosses. Bad bosses. Crying. Email fights. Deadlines. Human resources. Interviews. Quitting. Bonuses. Work. Let's talk about it.

(Intro music)

JUSTIN: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Mr. Corpo podcast. I'm Justin Kerr, and I wanna talk about work. I wanna talk about the good parts, I wanna talk about the bad parts. I wanna talk about the "I shouldn't have done that" parts. I wanna talk about everything in between. You spend all day at work. You spend all week at work. You spend almost your entire life at work. And then you get to your funeral, and no one talks about work. I mean, the injustice of it all. Well, here at the Mr. Corpo podcast, we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna have interviews with special guests, we're gonna take your questions, we're gonna help you get promoted. We're gonna put more money in your pocket.

Our show launches on September 7, the first season is gonna be five episodes. So pull up your podcast app, hit the subscribe button, and then give us a quick rating while you're there so we can move up the ranks and more people can find us.

Oh, and one more thing before we go.

Who is Mr. Corpo? I've grown up in corporate America. I've run billion-dollar businesses before I turned 30. I've also toured the country in a rock band. I've started my own record label. I started my own company. It was called Black Sheep Postal Service. I can almost guarantee you've never heard of it. It was such a failure -- but more on that later. And I've also written 13 books, the latest of which is called How To Write An Email. It's a survival guide for corporate America. I literally wrote the book on how to write an email.

Hit me on the social channels. I'm on Twitter at Mr_Corpo, or I'm on Instagram at MRCORPO. So, without further ado, let's get to work. 01:55